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Trust/Betrayal Storyline



Trust/Betrayal Storyline
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Doraemon


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:03 pm    Post subject: Trust/Betrayal Storyline Reply with quote
I thought the storyline was awesome, but there's a couple of things I've been wondering about - when Tomoe says something along the lines of "I plotted your destruction" about Kenshin, is she referring to the Shogunate she will meet later, or just plotting?

And why does Tatsumi (? the guy from the shogun she meets) say that they only used her to get to Kenshin, as if they planned for her to meet him? Confused

In the dubbed version, Tomoe says to Tatsumi something like "Why didn't you wait for my permission [to kill Kenshin]?" like she and the Shogunate planned this whole thing together....

...Maybe I'm just ignorant... ^_^
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Weis
Meryl Strife


Joined: 14 Dec 2001
Posts: 8075
Location: A Dip in the Suburbs...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Because they actually had plotted together originally to kill him. Remember, he killed her fiance so I can hardly imagine her liking him that much, at first anyway.
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kakarotsan
Shinobu Nagumo


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 473
Location: Geraldton (see sh!t-hole), WA, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I heard that everything happens a bit differently in the Manga. Is this true? And if so, what were the differences?
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2593
Location: My nan's house

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kakarotsan wrote:
I heard that everything happens a bit differently in the Manga. Is this true? And if so, what were the differences?


Just incase I'll use spoiler tags because I don't want to piss people off.

The first two OVA are more or less copies of the manga with bits added about Kenshins past before when the OVA is set.

The second 2 OVAs are very different, after Tomoe leaves to meet with the bad guys, Kenshin gets a letter saying that Tomoe has been kidnapped and he goes to save her. He isn't depressed he is really pissed off. The first guy, he cuts off his arms and then the guy blows himself up. The axe guy gets his legs cut off and blows himself up. The guy you don't see with the claw hands who looks a lot like a Venom/Carnage cross does still get a sword through his hand but he gets stuck to a tree and has to rip his hand open even more to escape.

Then the final battle Kenshin is pissed off and gets there very quickly (just before the leader of the group gets a chance to kill Tomoe) and fights the guy, Tomoe jumps in and gets killed. Kenshin accidently gets cut on the face during the final attack by Tomoes dagger to make the cross shaped scar, Tomoe didn't do it after getting sliced open. Later when Kenshin goes home he reads her diary and finds out about Kiyosato and everything goes from there.

Everything else is more or less the same. In the manga it doesn't cover Kenshin and Tomoe living together as long as the OVA's did. I don't think you see Kenshin farming and they never had the little getting naked scene.


Last edited by Personbot on Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Doraemon


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
mmm...ok, so the Shogunate and Tomoe plotted, and Tomoe thought her role was to get intelligence on what Kenshin's weaknesses were, but she was actually being used by them to get kenshin to fall in love with her? why would she care if she was being used for that?

And didn't Tomoe meet kenshin coincidentally anyway?
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akemi
Doraemon


Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tomoe cared that she was being used by the shogunate because she thought they were only helping her. In the end they had their on purpose. Their meeting i assume was a plot so she can infiltrate the Ishin shishi. Remember when they met? Kenshin fought with a hired Oniwabanshu (these were the guards used to protect the shogunate). Her role was to get acquainted with Kenshin and lure him with Tomoe as the bait.
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
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Location: My nan's house

PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
akemi wrote:
Kenshin fought with a hired Oniwabanshu (these were the guards used to protect the shogunate).


Kenshin never fought the Oniwaban in the OVAs. That guy was just a hired assassin.
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Doraemon


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought Tomoe was drunk when she met Kenshin?

I think that the next part of the OVA mentions that the hired assassin Kenshin fought was part of the Oniwanbanshuu.
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kakarotsan
Shinobu Nagumo


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 473
Location: Geraldton (see sh!t-hole), WA, Australia

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't think it says Oniwabanshu in the subtitles (as far as I can remember). I think they translate it a bit differently or something. But if you listen to the Japanese dialouge they do in fact say 'Oniwabanshu'.

Also, since Tomoe was meant to make Kenshin all weak and stuff, how come it was Katsura that got them together? Were the Shogunate intending for him to do this, or do you think it was that 'traitor' (name?) that got him to? But I remember it was Katsura's maid who suggested the sheath thing to him. Hmm...
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Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2593
Location: My nan's house

PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'll have to take a look at it later. My damn Trust dvd is a real aggressive go-getter and never works in my dvd rom. I have to restart my computer generally 5 times just to get to the main menu. It works fine on any other dvd player, but my computer is just a pain in the arse.
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Argowal
Shiina Tamai


Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 4514
Location: Western Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2004 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
My thoughts:

kakarotsan wrote:
Also, since Tomoe was meant to make Kenshin all weak and stuff, how come it was Katsura that got them together?


He didn't know that Tomoe was working for the other side. As far as he knew he was trying to help stop Kenshin from becoming a souless killer whose only interaction with other people was to kill them.

Quote:
Were the Shogunate intending for him to do this


I would assume the badguys just suggested the "get close to Kenshin" plan to Tomoe and then left the fine details up to her. The fact that Katsura suggested this was just an unexpected bonus.

Quote:
But I remember it was Katsura's maid who suggested the sheath thing to him. Hmm...


I thought that was Katsura's wife? And the idea is that the gentleness and caring of the women is a balance to the murderous lifestyle the men were leading.
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Doraemon


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i think it's his geisha that suggests the sheath thing
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Requiem
Linn Syun-Rock Dreu Haider Jinto


Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 2259
Location: Newcastle

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Niwaban-shu ninja. Not obiwaban-shu. Straight from the subtitles Smile

Katsura's girl is described as a "favoured consort", and her name is Ikumatsu.
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kakarotsan
Shinobu Nagumo


Joined: 01 Jul 2003
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Location: Geraldton (see sh!t-hole), WA, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think I just found a plot-hole in the OVA's. If the reason that Kenshin's scars don't dissapear is beacause they were made by someone with extreme hatred (and won't dissapear until revenge is exacted), then the scar Tomoe put on Kenshin's cheek should eventually dissapear. She didn't hate or look very angry when she put the cut in Kenshin. Am I right?

Looking at the description of the manga reflection arc above it seems that she must of been feeling hatred when she got killed.
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
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Location: My nan's house

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If I may quote the Maigo-chan Ruroken text translations:

Quote:

Sanosuke: Oh yeah, that reminds me. Itís been bothering me lately. That scar of Kenshinís. If itís such an old wound, whyís it still so clear?

Megumi: Hm . . . Iím not really sure, but this is something Dr. Oguni told me a long time ago. Itís really just a superstition, but they say that if someone attaches strong feelings to a sword wound, as long as he carries those feelings, the scar will not fade.


So it has nothing to do with Tomoe's feelings its about Kenshins feelings. Thats why after the Jinchuu Arc of the manga his scar finally begins to fade because he finally comes to terms with everything and goes on to live a happy peaceful life.

I'll just add the way the wound kept bleeding throughout the OVAs whenever Kenshin killed someone wasn't in the manga. That was just thrown in to make it more dramatic or something I don't really know why.
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Requiem
Linn Syun-Rock Dreu Haider Jinto


Joined: 08 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think it is meant to symbolise his internal struggle, personally.
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Argowal
Shiina Tamai


Joined: 08 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Requiem wrote:
Katsura's girl is described as a "favoured consort", and her name is Ikumatsu.


Bah, so it's his defacto then. She can still take half his stuff when they break up Razz
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