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Internet Censorship: Libs will block filter in Senate



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Internet Censorship: Libs will block filter in Senate
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beardedgeek
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ohh a email that will be responded to with a copy paste by his secretary, be a man and turkey slap the turkey
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TheHeadSage
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually go pay a visit to your local member. Tends to be more effective. Also, best go in a group.
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Shai'tan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
TheHeadSage wrote:
Also, best go in a group.


Equipped with pitchforks and torches?
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Inniss 1428
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shai'tan wrote:
Equipped with pitchforks and torches?

So long as you book ahead. No fun forming a good old angry mob, only to find your "victim" is in an appointment.
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FireAza
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mayor Quimby's secretary: "An angry mob to see you sir."
Mayor Quimby: "Does it have an appointment?"
Mayor Quimby's secretary: "Actually, it does."
Principal Skinner: "I phoned ahead!"
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Mad Anime Fan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hm an angry mob is more fun and potentially destructive then an e-mail Razz
But an e-mail is probably what I will do like SGB.
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Bowspearer
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Continuation of off-topic discussion removed. --HB

Back on topic- I think that online petitions seldom work, and that the pitchforks idea is a little too much on the side of extreme, but not by much. I'm not advocating violence, just stating that a massive assembly of people who wont be silenced and wont go away can be very effective in creating a poor public image and thus severely damaging their political careers Wink.
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CG
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shai'tan wrote:
Equipped with pitchforks and torches?


It'd be like RE4.
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Mr Waffle
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Glad I don't work there, then. Razz
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Greoboruri
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry for raising this thread from the grave, but I thought it'd be stupid to make another thread.

Since January, there's been some developments, especially with the budget;

libertus.net wrote:
The Federal Government’s ‘Cyber-safety Plan’ Budget 2008-2012, announced on 14 May 2008, allocates $25 million dollars (or more) to ISP ‘blocking’ of web sites unsuitable for children to see (in year 2009-10), while its ‘razor gang’ has shaved $2.8 million off the increased funding for the Australian Federal Police’s Online Child Sexual Exploitation Team (”OCSET”) that had been budgeted by the former Coalition Government (see figures in August 2007 budget paper, and media release of 14 May 2008 issued by The Hon Bruce Billson MP, Shadow Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy).

In addition, Labor’s Budget has delayed the former Coalition Government’s planned increase to 90 members of OCSET in 2009-10 until 2011. The Labor Government claims that its budget will result in 91 additional AFP members dedicated to online child protection by 2011. However, it is entirely unclear how that could be achieved with a budget of $2.8 million less than the Coalition Government had budgeted for 90 members by 2009-2010.
Wow, they're so about saving the kids aren't they? Also Stephen Conroy is an idiot. Please tell him what you think of his filtering plan and how you're sick of his condescending and insulting remarks about internet users;

Senator Stephen Conroy
Minister for Communications, Broadband and the Digital Economy
Level 4, 4 Treasury Place
Melbourne Vic 3002

Also a couple of new websites have popped up, http://www.nocleanfeed.com/ from the EFA and the http://www.somebodythinkofthechildren.com/ blog by the guy who made Netalarmed.com
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Orion159
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
But gee ... internet filtering works so well in China! They've set a fantastic model for what can be achieved with rigorous monitoring of all on-line information, and for the sake of the poor, impressionable souls being corrupted by the harbinger of moral decay that is the internet it is the Government's right ... no, duty ... to protect us from our own impure thoughts ...
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Inniss 1428
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orion159 wrote:
But gee ... internet filtering works so well in China! They've set a fantastic model for what can be achieved with rigorous monitoring of all on-line information, and for the sake of the poor, impressionable souls being corrupted by the harbinger of moral decay that is the internet it is the Government's right ... no, duty ... to protect us from our own impure thoughts ...

Too right brother. This internet filtering plan is double plus good. Big Brother only has our best interests at heart.
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^Kat^cassidy^
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK, so w're going to have faster internet that is still slower than a lot of the other countries in the world - but with such a big country I am not surprised - and it will be filtered before it reaches our homes - something no other country besides China does - in the name of protecting children from pornographic material.

Next we'll have subscription television with less channels than what other countries have, but with channels all run by only one provider nobody will know, and it won't be allowed to play <R> rated movies like "Kill Bill (Part 1)" unless they are censored down to an {MA} rating even though there is a parental lock in place..... Oh....

Next we'll have <R> rated games being refused classifi.....never mind

(In other words this is only the latest in a line of things that get screwed up by stupid legislation like this)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
For me personally I think I must have missed what EXACTLY is being blocked?

And if the option is to simply opt-out and be monitored, I'm sure that the ISP providers realize WHY people would be wanting to opt out and probably not jump too much on the fact that 80% of their client el pay an internet bill purely for porn. So not worried that anyone would be watching me. O.O
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^Kat^cassidy^
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
By the way, just a thought about internet bullying.

If somebody is bullying you online, IGNORE THEM! It's NOT like in the school yard where they are in your face, they are not THERE! Add them to your IM block list. In IRC type /ignore their-nick

Was that really so hard? And if the *ahem*-wit who's bullying gorws a clue they might think to change their e-mail address, but if they do that and come back bulling, ignore them again!

There

I've solved the problem of internet bullying. Where's my share of the Govornment's millions please?
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Greoboruri
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
^Kat^cassidy^ wrote:
OK, so w're going to have faster internet that is still slower than a lot of the other countries in the world [...] and it will be filtered before it reaches our homes [...] in the name of protecting children from pornographic material.
Yeah but my point was they're claiming to protect children by putting up $125.8 million over four years for this "Cyber‑safety Plan", which is an incredible waste of money, then they reduced the Australian Federal Police's Online Child Sexual Exploitation Team's budget by $2.8 million (the budget for that team equals $49 million for four years) and they want to bring on 91 new members to the team. God knows how they're going to do that with the money they've been allocated. Yes obviously the paedophiles will disappear when we have filtered internet, so no more need for the AFP to catch them online! Plus the AFP has to wear the costs of a building they won't even use, plus multi-million upgrades to their new HQ in Barton, so more tightening of AFP's budget which they could have put towards actually catching those who make child porn and upload it, rather than pissing off Australian internet users.

The whole thing is friggin moronic, then Conroy has the gall to claim than the new high speed internet will cause more cyber bullying. The man is a friggin luddite, almost on par with Richard Alston.
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Schmavid
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
As far as internet bullying goes its not the things said directly to you online thats the problem. It's the posting of information about you on websites and people not only saying things that are untruthful about you but having them "forever" written on the internet.
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^Kat^cassidy^
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Greoboruri wrote:
Yeah but my point was they're claiming to protect children by putting up $125.8 million over four years for this "Cyber‑safety Plan", which is an incredible waste of money, then they reduced the Australian Federal Police's Online Child Sexual Exploitation Team's budget by $2.8 million


Oops, I'd originally read that as $1.25 million. Point taken, and now knowing the correct figures, I agree, it is definetly a bad thing.
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Inniss 1428
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
~:Sakura:~ wrote:
For me personally I think I must have missed what EXACTLY is being blocked?

From Wikipedia:
"if a complaint is issued about material "on the Internet" the Australian Communications and Media Authority is empowered to examine the material under the guidelines for film and video. If the material would be classified R18+ or X18+ and the site does not have an adult verification system, or would be refused classification, and is hosted in Australia, the ABA is empowered to issue a "takedown notice" under which the material must be removed from the site. If the site is hosted outside Australia, the site is added to a list of banned sites. This list of banned sites is then added to filtering software"

That's for the current filtering software that all ISPs make available to their consumers. I assume the compulsary filter would be similar, but as it's an opt-out system, people are concerned about their privacy.
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Arbron
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm still waiting for those allegedly-condescending remarks from Stephen Conroy to be shown to me, all I read in the article that Greoboruri posted were the remarks of a man who seems genuinely ignorant in the truest, least perjorative sense of the word.
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Mad Anime Fan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How idiotic, I wonder if anyone has said something to officially get Conroy booted out?
This man is our communications minister.
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Schmavid
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
After reading the way in which this will be done it doesn't worry me a great deal at all. It's not the Government who will be choosing which websites to block and which not to. Realistically with the opt-out option what will be the problem? The only people who should be worried are those who are running illegal and immoral websites.
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Arbron
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
And exactly who is qualified to define "immoral" again?

If it were up to some folk, you wouldn't be able to watch a video online of Brittany "Bod" doing a striptease to Crazy ***** and let's face it: that would just suck.
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StorminNorman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mad Anime Fan wrote:
How idiotic, I wonder if anyone has said something to officially get Conroy booted out?
This man is our communications minister.


We've had worse.
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redacidman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yet another $3.5b to wasted on a policing firewall that doesn't anyway, that's just to keep the bible thumpers behind the current Gov that's all that is...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Schmavid wrote:
After reading the way in which this will be done it doesn't worry me a great deal at all. It's not the Government who will be choosing which websites to block and which not to. Realistically with the opt-out option what will be the problem? The only people who should be worried are those who are running illegal and immoral websites.


Immoral? As in what? Heaps of people still consider homosexuality immoral.
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Orion159
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Schmavid wrote:
After reading the way in which this will be done it doesn't worry me a great deal at all. It's not the Government who will be choosing which websites to block and which not to. Realistically with the opt-out option what will be the problem? The only people who should be worried are those who are running illegal and immoral websites.


As stated by multiple others, we can understand the intent but end of the day the execution is where the problem lies. Basically it boils down to two points:

1) Huge waste of money. We all saw how well the mailed-out children lock worked, why do we think this will be any better? I mean come on, tech companies spend billions each year on security and are still constantly open to hacks etc ... do we really expect anything started by Conroy to hit anything but the most obvious targets? I mean, it's not as though there are more important things such money could be earmarked for ...

2) Who decides what gets filtered? Fine, so only the illegal and immoral get hit ... but where does it stop? Maybe sites promoting gay marriage seeing as that's an illegal act? Pro-abortion as against religious MP's beliefs? Anime as promoting deviant activity through a childs medium? I used China above as the extreme example, but the problem of over-regulation is one that has been abused both in the past and today and this would just be a new approach ...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
StorminNorman wrote:
[..]



We've had worse.
Conroy still ranks up there.
I mean seriously we could have someone more compotent and doesn't take punt shots at net users who have opposing thoughts as "pedos" simply put.
So yeah makes you wonder about him.
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musk.stick
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gouki wrote:

Immoral? As in what? Heaps of people still consider homosexuality immoral.


Exactly. How are they going to define what is and isn't immoral? There's no law stating what is and isn't immoral, it's all a matter of opinion.

It somewhat defeats the purpose if it's to "protect the children", when funding for the Australian Federal Police's Online Child Sexual Exploitation Team is reduced. Who's more capable of catching an online paedophile - a filter, or a team of trained police?
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Inniss 1428
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
musk.stick wrote:
Who's more capable of catching an online paedophile - a filter, or a team of trained police?

Anonymous? *cough*Chris Forcand*cough*
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Schmavid
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
musk.stick wrote:
Exactly. How are they going to define what is and isn't immoral? There's no law stating what is and isn't immoral, it's all a matter of opinion.


Well its the Australian Communications and Media Authority who currently have the power to pull shows and commercials that are deemed immoral anyway. And what does it really matter when you can opt out of it?
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Inniss 1428
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Schmavid wrote:
And what does it really matter when you can opt out of it?

Because it's kinda a pointless waste of taxpayers money to develop a system if most people are going to end up opting out of it. Also, people are scared that if they opt-out, their browsing activities may be put under more scrutiny.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Schmavid wrote:
And what does it really matter when you can opt out of it?

What if you make an Australian website that has R rated material, and it gets blocks. Suddenly a large proportion of your targeted audience isn't gonna have access to it.

Yes, you can opt out, but many people won't, either because they're unaware of it, or they don't care enough.
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Greoboruri
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Schmavid wrote:
[Well its the Australian Communications and Media Authority who currently have the power to pull shows and commercials that are deemed immoral anyway.
Um, no they don't. They administer codes of practice for TV, radio and internet. It's got nothing to do with morals as such. I've never heard of a show or advertisement being pulled because it was immoral. Because of it being offensive or not complying with the code, but nothing to do with morals. I think they're a bit toothless in regard to radio and TV anyway. Look at the complete inaction when the ACMA investigated Alan Jones over the comments in his show about what happened in Cronulla.
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musk.stick
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't understand why they have to make it mandatory. For those who want it, they can get it. For those who don't, they can remain as they are and not have to worry about being "monitored".
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Itachigotchi
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Correct me if I'm wrong... but for those who are that desperate, can't this be solved via proxy?

I know this doesn't solve the principle of the thing though.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe. Depends on how the filtering is implemented.
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Greoboruri
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Again, instead of making a new topic, will resurrect the dead one.

So the Federal Government's filtering trial has recently been completed. The report can be downloaded here as a pdf document.

It's pretty bloody shocking. I'm not too up on the technical details, so I've been looking at other websites to get the layman versions of what it says. the EFA had these comments;
Quote:
-One filter caused a 22% drop in speed even when it was *not* performing filtering;

-Only one of the six filters had an acceptable level of performance (a drop of 2% in a laboratory trial), the others causing drops in speed of between 21% and 86%;

-The most accurate filters were often the slowest;

-All filters tested had problems with under-blocking, allowing access to between 2% and 13% of material that they should have blocked;

-and All filters tested had serious problems with over-blocking, wrongly blocking access to between 1.3% and 7.8% of the websites tested.
So that's roughly 4% of LEGAL sites blocked. That's pretty crap. Even the filter at work isn't that bad.

Some comments from somebodythinkofthechildren.com blog;
Quote:
1) Load testing was based on just 30 simulated users. Large ISPs have hundreds of thousands of customers and even small ISPs have thousands. Any network performance testing based off 30 users is not reliable when the plan is to filter every Australian’s Internet connection.

2) During the trial, only 3930 URLs were filtered. When you consider Mr Conroy wants to block ‘inappropriate content’ to children, 3930 URLs is simply too low and doesn’t show the potential real impact on network performance or filtering effectiveness. The Internet contains hundreds of thousands of websites not appropriate for children by our classification standards.

3) The report claims all but one of the six filters was able ‘filter’ HTTPS traffic. This is unlikely, considering HTTPS traffic is secure. The filters can probably only blanket ban access to such traffic. Nobody wants their banking and online purchases monitored by the Government.

4) There is no analysis of circumvention methods and that’s crucial to understanding why filters - ISP and software based - are ineffective. Filtering can be bypassed in minutes by a savvy net user and in hour by anyone following instructions.

5) There is no analysis of the costs of deploying and implementing a filter at ISP level, nor is there any analysis of the associated costs that will be passed onto customers.
the filtering of https worries me a lot. Why would there be a need to do that? I don't want my Paypal, Amazon, Banking etc details to be scrutinised. A little more from the same site;
Quote:
80-90% of Australia?s Internet traffic goes to the USA, a considerable distance and a large amount of latency. This is not simulated in the network design ? rather the testbed assumes that all the content is local to Australia and thus of low latency. Effects like jitter and loss become exponentially worse as latency increases, so the testbed understates by orders of magnitude the performance effects on traffic. This single error is so huge that its effect swamps the results, rendering the performance results of no value at all.
So it seems that they're going to practically destroy internet use. 4% blockage of legal sites is 4% too much. If you're still on dial-up, you're screwed. There had better be an opt out option, but I sometimes feel rather sceptical that will happen.
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Mad Anime Fan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is so damn stupid also of note, even the madboards themselves are http in the URL itself.
So this whole plan sounds like it will most likely fall through or have to be redeveloped, lest the government want complaints thrown at the incompotenet communications minister Stephen Conroy.
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Phoenix85
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The madboards is http, but NOT https, which is what I believe was the issue mentioned above.

nit-picking I know, but I reckon the whole thing has knobs on it anyway.
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StorminNorman
Gillard-chan


Joined: 15 Aug 2001
Posts: 22106
Location: Tolmekia

PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Presumably the Government will realise, based on this data, that the idea is a terrible one and will silently kill it, just like the US Government did ten years ago.
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TheHeadSage
Sylia Stingray


Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 2120
Location: Curlewis, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Or they could just decide that the speed drop is acceptable, as only pirates need high speed internet and forge ahead.

Which is going to fail miserably, as some links already suffer due to slowdowns, such as Fibre taps, DPIs, ect, adding filters is going to make it a whole lot worse.

As for HTTPS filtering, it's only possible based on IP address, as that's the only part that can be used.
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Schmavid
Eikichi Onizuka


Joined: 09 Feb 2004
Posts: 3008
Location: Where else but Queensland.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Greoboruri wrote:
If you're still on dial-up, you're screwed.


I unfortunately am on dial-up as there have been no ADSL ports in my area for the past two years. So the government can then pay for me to either get wireless at ADSL prices and download limits or get the ports installed that I have been waiting so long for.
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madmangohan
Noooooooooooooooo


Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 6888
Location: In a crate somewhere in Brisbane, Qld

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So does that mean we should refer to our speeds as 400k instead of 512k Razz
*looks at shot 256k and cries*
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SG-B
Arumi Asahina


Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1774
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.somebodythinkofthechildren.com/no-opt-out-from-isp-filtering-two-black-lists-and-you-can-only-opt-out-from-one/


Labor's a disgrace. Conroy needs a belting.

Labor's lost my vote for the next election.
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Soul Master Kaze
Shinji Ikari


Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Posts: 3414
Location: Galactica

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If that actually holds water, and isn't just an unsubstanciated rumor, I'll be writing a strongly worded letter to my federal Member of Parliament. Whilst I support the concept of having filtering on material which is illegal under Australian law, I don't support the ham-fisted way that it will be implemented, or the resulting slowing of the internet speed. And then there's the inevitable conspiracy theories which will result from such filtering.
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Mad Anime Fan
Banned


Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Posts: 6693
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is quite stupid why does the government insist on pushing forward with something so stupid still anyway?
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Inniss 1428
Kagami Hiiragi


Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 3702
Location: Somewhere on Teh Intertubez.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
SG-B wrote:
http://www.somebodythinkofthechildren.com/no-opt-out-from-isp-filtering-two-black-lists-and-you-can-only-opt-out-from-one/


Labor's a disgrace. Conroy needs a belting.

Labor's lost my vote for the next election.

Well, that does it. This is where I draw the line.
I'm going to have to keep updated on this issue. If a bill proposing to implement this gets brought before parliament, I'm going to first write a letter to the GG asking she use her power to annull the legislation, in the event it gets that far, since it's such a blatant infringement on the freedoms we should (but constitutionally don't) have. I'm then going to my nearest British Embassy to make arrangements to leave should that not work.

You may try to justify limitations on freedom and possible invasions of privacy by saying that only the wrong-doers need be concerned about it, but if you use that justification, why not just put monitoring equipment in every citizens' home and be done with it? Why not just say "Hey, we like China's great firewall, we're making one too." and be done with it?

Howard's anti-terror laws had me seriously considering moving, but if this ever actually gets implemented (and I seriously doubt it will), I'm not going to hang around in the half-hearted hope that the next government will remove it. Stuff losing my vote, they're losing a voter.

Late edit: Damn, UK has internet filtering too, albeit oly for cp, but the infrastructure is there. Going to have to find another country that's easy for me to get residency in, just in case.
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SG-B
Arumi Asahina


Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1774
Location: Berkeley

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1399635276;fp;16;fpid;0
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Gouki
Vanilla H


Joined: 01 Oct 2001
Posts: 6599
Location: Ballarat

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'M TOO DUMB TO FIND OTHER WORDS TO USE SO I USE THE F WORD this ****. God damn it all to hell. This is wasting our time, making our already expensive and crappy internet more expensive and crappy and wasting tax payer money.
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