Usergroups  ·  Register ·    Profile  ·  Log in to check your private messages  ·   Log in     

making a sil 80



making a sil 80
Author
Message
heihachi
Hajime Saitou


Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
Location: Bathurst

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:42 am    Post subject: making a sil 80 Reply with quote
i just wonder what propaganda red tape i need to cut to make a sil 80
do i need an enginers autograph, if i keep the donk(180sx) stock?
_________________
i hope theres nothing wrong with taking a Suzuki MightyBoy to a ute muster
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
El_Haroldo
Banned


Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Making from what? In answer to your question, you need an engineers certificate if you switch out an engine, but only if the engine is different from what that model of car was originally equipped with. Somewhere along the line, you're most likely going to need a certificate anyway, because any major structural changes, as well as safety changes, or potential safety changes, like fitting sports seats, require an engineers certicate.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Mr Waffle
TEH WAFFLES!!11!


Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 9128

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
From what I understand you'll need a little bit of modification to the front to properly accommodate the panels, but given that I've seen at least a dozen Sil80s now roaming Australia, I doubt it's difficult. Probably best to read a Silvia forum to be sure...

If you're thinking of using S15 parts for the Strawberry look, I believe that requires some hefty changes to the front to fit the larger headlights.

Personally I find Onevias more interesting, because they can look like utter crap or fantastic depending on the job. There's one in the drifting comps that looks awesome...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sauce
Sakura Kinomoto


Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 7962
Location: Ziltoidia 9

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The strawberry face (S15 front on a 180SX) is hella-cool, but one conversion I like lots that I haven't seen much of is the Sky80 - R32 GTR front on a 180:



But I can only wonder what kind of work it would take to pull this one off @__@

(Pic yoinked from, and more in this thread on NissanSilvia.com)
_________________
You have not convinced mighty Ziltoid, for I am so omniscient that if there were to be two omnisciences I would be both!

Prepare yourselves for the subjugation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
braddles
Doraemon


Joined: 18 Dec 2002
Posts: 81
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My question is, has anyone done this without first stuffing their front end? A whole half-cut is likely to come from something that had its bum written-off. Unless you've made a bit of a mess up front, is it worth the bother?

I've seen a VW Bora and Golf IV with their fronts swapped, but that is an afternoon job, as long as you have a mate with the same coloured car of the other model. And that it literally just the front: no wings, no engine swap.

Is that practical for the 180 owner and his mate's silvia?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sauce
Sakura Kinomoto


Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 7962
Location: Ziltoidia 9

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I dunno... I'm sure swapping fronts between a 180 and an S13 silvia would probably be easier than any other S13 to S14/15 conversion given those cars are more similar than any of the others, but I guess it'd still be a fairly big job, what with the flip up/fixed headlights and all.
_________________
You have not convinced mighty Ziltoid, for I am so omniscient that if there were to be two omnisciences I would be both!

Prepare yourselves for the subjugation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mr Waffle
TEH WAFFLES!!11!


Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 9128

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
In case anyone thinks so, there's no engine swap involved with a Sil80 conversion, since both Silvias and 180s came with both CA18s and SR20s. I suppose you could nick an SR20 from a Silvia halfcut to plonk in a CA18 180SX, but that's beyond the scope of a Sil80 face swap.

I just did a google for sil80 conversion, and found-

Autospeed wrote:
The initial plan was to bolt on a Nissan S15 front-end but John wasnít too rapt in having to use fibreglass guards. So the tried and proven Sil80 conversion it was. John says itís an extremely easy swap, requiring only some modification of the headlight wiring.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DXPetti
Washu Hakubi


Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 321
Location: Mornington Peninsula, Victoria

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Neutral never knew 180s had a CA18 in them Neutral I thought only pre 91 Silvas had CAs in them Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Mr Waffle
TEH WAFFLES!!11!


Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 9128

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DXPetti wrote:
Neutral never knew 180s had a CA18 in them Neutral I thought only pre 91 Silvas had CAs in them Confused


Well, now you know. Wink I can't really find any useful links on the net though.

Random fact I can't back up: some 180SXs (buggered if I know from where) were badged "200SX". I've seen one in Sydney... and it's in the actual panelling itself, like the 180SXs badging.

Where is that Ingram fellow? He knows like... everything in the whole world. Bah.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sauce
Sakura Kinomoto


Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 7962
Location: Ziltoidia 9

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think he vanished from the face of the earth.

I remember seeing that 180 with 200SX stuff in Sydney aswell, but that was the only time I ever saw one. Maybe it was done by the owner? I can't find anything about such a thing on 200SX.org...
_________________
You have not convinced mighty Ziltoid, for I am so omniscient that if there were to be two omnisciences I would be both!

Prepare yourselves for the subjugation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
DXPetti
Washu Hakubi


Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 321
Location: Mornington Peninsula, Victoria

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Isnt that because 200sx were the name for the Silva/180 line up in Australia, and in the US they are badged 240sx Question
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Sauce
Sakura Kinomoto


Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 7962
Location: Ziltoidia 9

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 180SX and S13 Silvias were never sold here (as in new from Nissan dealers), only as imports, so It'd have nothing to do with that.
_________________
You have not convinced mighty Ziltoid, for I am so omniscient that if there were to be two omnisciences I would be both!

Prepare yourselves for the subjugation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mr Waffle
TEH WAFFLES!!11!


Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 9128

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DXPetti wrote:
Isnt that because 200sx were the name for the Silva/180 line up in Australia, and in the US they are badged 240sx Question


As ol man Banderas said, the 180SX and S13 Silvia weren't sold here. S14s and S15s were badged 200SX here, yeah. But what I'm talking about is a 180SX with 200SX badging- on the pillar thing (C pillar?) on the side, where "180SX" normally is, and on the back.

Zilvia.net wrote:
So we have Japan where the 180sx use to have a ca18 but switched over to an sr20 with out changing the name. Then we have Europe where the 180sx was actually called the 200sx but never had a 2 liter motor.


I saw this information on another forum thread, but I couldn't find it again (stupid random googling). I suppose it's possible the Sydney driver either brought his car over from the UK (if it was sold there???) or (more likely) bought the parts and swapped them in. *shrug*

I guess the problem is that Australia only deals with Japanese Silvia family cars, so nobody knows about Europeans... and Americans only deal with 240SXs with their truck engines, so they know nothing either... and the Europeans only care about Mitsubishis, Subarus and Hondas (bloody Civic Type Rs), so... yeah... I hate international car differences XD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sauce
Sakura Kinomoto


Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 7962
Location: Ziltoidia 9

PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr Waffle wrote:
But what I'm talking about is a 180SX with 200SX badging- on the pillar thing (C pillar?) on the side, where "180SX" normally is, and on the back.


The pillar garnish? (the bit between the drivers door and the back-quarter window)
_________________
You have not convinced mighty Ziltoid, for I am so omniscient that if there were to be two omnisciences I would be both!

Prepare yourselves for the subjugation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ChrisZ
Hajime Saitou


Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 101
Location: Brisbane

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alright, as a 180sx owner, I may be able to help you a bit.

When changing a 180 into a Sil80, you don't need to have a front cut, or chop the car up or anything of the sort. The Silvia front just bolts on perfectly with no modification and vise versa. All you need is the panels (front left and right quarters, bonnet, headlights front bar etc..) The process is certainly not that difficult.

As for red tape, there is NONE. If anything it just counts as a bodykit. They are not illegal, as you are just changing panels and not cutting into the car as mentioned above. No need to get a mod plate.

The sileighty was originally thought up in japan because it was cheaper to replace drift damaged 180sx front ends with silvia ones to save expense on the pop-up lights. It soon became a common practice and Nissan caught on to what the drivers of their cars were doing. It is said that in 1994, Nissan created 200 factory SilEighties. They have "Sileighty" written in the rear garnish and quarter windows, have TypeX 180 rear lights, and a beautiful factory bodykit. They are also slightly more powerful and have better suspension. They are of course very rare, and rumour has it that one sold for AU$30k on auction in Japan a while back. This doesn't seem like much, but considering you can get yourself a normal 180sx for around $2-3k in japan, 30k was a huge sum.

There are plenty more than 12 Sil80 in Australia. I know of hundreds in QLD alone. Infact, they are becoming far too common in the opinion of most S13 drivers. Of course these are not the authentic ones (if we wre lucky enough to even have ONE, but we will never know).

For the S14/S15 front end conversion, it is slightly more difficult. You need a pair of custom front quarter panels for the purpose of a ichigo conversion and a rad support among a few other bits and pieces. Again, there is no red tape for this conversion, Unless the custom quarter panels are made of fibreglass, in which case picky coppers might defect you for it.

Now to the CA's... the 180sx began production in 1989, and up until early 1991 they were produced with CA18DET engines. This is exactly the same for the Silvia. In late 91, both the 180sx and Silvia made the swap to SR20DET. No need to change engines when converting, since as i mentioned before it's just panel work.

To the comment about the 200sx badged 180: Over in Europe, as was mentioned, the 180sx didn't come out with the 2 litre SR engine. Instead they stuck with the trusty old CA18 engines and developed them for improved performance. The european CA18 can in some cases be as good as a japanese SR20 of the same year since they chose to develop it further. There are also a few differences in the cabin. The euro 200sx sports a later model 94 180sx interior instead of the dodgy CA18 interior. There are also a few other differences I can't put my finger on at the moment.

There is only one authentic Euro 180sx in Australia that I know of. (There could be more, I've just never heard of any) It's white and is in beautiful factory condition. A lot of people just give their cars the 200sx rear garnish for the w*nk factor.

My apologies if I've covered things that were already discussed, i just skim read the thread Very Happy

</end attempt at trying to fill in for Ingram> Wink
_________________
*gasp* Chocolate! Half Price!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Mr Waffle
TEH WAFFLES!!11!


Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 9128

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ChrisZ wrote:
There are plenty more than 12 Sil80 in Australia.


I just said a dozen because that's how many I've seen in person, unfortunately the import community in Canberra is pretty much summed up by the word "Skyline" Razz (there are other cars, but I don't see them used as daily drivers like all the R33s...)

ChrisZ wrote:
There is only one authentic Euro 180sx in Australia that I know of. (There could be more, I've just never heard of any) It's white and is in beautiful factory condition. A lot of people just give their cars the 200sx rear garnish for the w*nk factor.


The one I saw in Sydney was dark blue, so it could just be wank. *shrug*

Thanks for the answers, fortunately what you said agrees with what I said so I don't look like a fool XD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sauce
Sakura Kinomoto


Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 7962
Location: Ziltoidia 9

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr Waffle wrote:
unfortunately the import community in Canberra is pretty much summed up by the word "Skyline" Razz (there are other cars, but I don't see them used as daily drivers like all the R33s...) Also I am a fat poohead.


I'll kill you. KILL YOU. What's unfortunate about it? Razz *Hugs his 33* Razz
_________________
You have not convinced mighty Ziltoid, for I am so omniscient that if there were to be two omnisciences I would be both!

Prepare yourselves for the subjugation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ChrisZ
Hajime Saitou


Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 101
Location: Brisbane

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr Waffle wrote:
ChrisZ wrote:
There are plenty more than 12 Sil80 in Australia.


I just said a dozen because that's how many I've seen in person, unfortunately the import community in Canberra is pretty much summed up by the word "Skyline" Razz (there are other cars, but I don't see them used as daily drivers like all the R33s...)


Come up to brissie, plenty of beautiful cars up here Very Happy


And hey, I could be wrong about 200sx's too, you never know. Wink
_________________
*gasp* Chocolate! Half Price!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
braddles
Doraemon


Joined: 18 Dec 2002
Posts: 81
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ChrisZ wrote:
Come up to brissie, plenty of beautiful cars up here Very Happy

And hey, I could be wrong about 200sx's too, you never know. Wink

But you haven't got a clue about roundabouts. Smile

The international differences in engines typically come down to tax. And octane. And a lot of other things. In Australia for example, we are not allowed to get any exciting cars unless we import them ourselves and take all the risk. Exciting cars might take our youth away from Falcodores and masturbation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sauce
Sakura Kinomoto


Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 7962
Location: Ziltoidia 9

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
braddles wrote:

But you haven't got a clue about roundabouts. Smile


Neither have most of the people here in the ACT Wink
_________________
You have not convinced mighty Ziltoid, for I am so omniscient that if there were to be two omnisciences I would be both!

Prepare yourselves for the subjugation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bazza
Shinobu Nagumo


Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 412
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'll ask this here. Does anyone have any rough $ figures to buy a Nissan 180SX in AUS in good cond ect. ect; plus the silvia bits and the actual conversion?

I've been told upwards of 20k but I thought I'd get an educated opinion. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
DXPetti
Washu Hakubi


Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 321
Location: Mornington Peninsula, Victoria

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mate just bought a immaculate (stock) condition 180sx SR20DET for $13,000

Meh I'd rather put an extra 10Gs and get a 03 Subaru Impreza RS (which I did last week Smile )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Mr Waffle
TEH WAFFLES!!11!


Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 9128

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I recall reading on a Silvia forum post (when looking up Sil80s) that you could buy a 180SX and do the conversion for less than $15,000. *shrug* (the figure from "what can I get for $15k?")
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ChrisZ
Hajime Saitou


Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 101
Location: Brisbane

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, my turn to step in again.

Bazza: It will depend on what engine you are after, for the CA18DET, you could grab one from around 8.5k to 11k. Generally you will find the more powerful SR20DET version for 11k-15k in stock or mildly modded form. The more mods and the later the year model, the price will obviously increase. You should only pay 20k+ if it's a top of the range 180, like the 96/97 TypeX model, or if it has more than 250kw at the wheels and looks like a show car.

When it comes to the SilEighty conversion, your best bet is to join a Nissan forum, and post a request to swap front ends with a Silvia driver. (As most will know, they can use the 180 front to convert to Onevia) If you both agree on a straight swap, then there's your SilEighty conversion parts for no cost! All that is left is to fit and paint everything at your choice of panel beater.

My prices are based on PRIVATE sales; not from a caryard. Caryards are overpriced and I wouldn't step foot in one unless I wanted to take the car for a joyride. Also, prices vary a bit between Auto and Manual transmissions. The less desirable Auto is almost always in the lower bracket of the price range I have quoted you, and manual the higher. I have even seen SR20 Auto's in immaculate conditon go for the price of the CA18.
_________________
*gasp* Chocolate! Half Price!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
DXPetti
Washu Hakubi


Joined: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 321
Location: Mornington Peninsula, Victoria

PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ChrisZ wrote:

Caryards are overpriced and I wouldn't step foot in one unless I wanted to take the car for a joyride.


But you dont feel bad when you beat down prices in a caryard but when its a private sale its hard on the heart. Twisted Evil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Mr. Wendal
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 18 Oct 2001
Posts: 2549
Location: Teaching English in Japan

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think the later model 180's were called 200SX's in japan. They still produced them up until 1998, when the S14 was out, and called them 200SX's.

Then again most of my information comes from Gran Turismo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
El_Haroldo
Banned


Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 1395

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DXPetti wrote:
ChrisZ wrote:

Caryards are overpriced and I wouldn't step foot in one unless I wanted to take the car for a joyride.


But you dont feel bad when you beat down prices in a caryard but when its a private sale its hard on the heart. Twisted Evil


I bought my last car from people far wealthier than I. Had no moral problems buying it for far less than it was worth, and negotiated for less than the asking price.

Come to think of it, I would have done that if they were poor. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
ChrisZ
Hajime Saitou


Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 101
Location: Brisbane

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr. Wendal wrote:
I think the later model 180's were called 200SX's in japan. They still produced them up until 1998, when the S14 was out, and called them 200SX's.

Then again most of my information comes from Gran Turismo.


Nah, they were still 180sx, all the way until 1998.
_________________
*gasp* Chocolate! Half Price!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Mr Waffle
TEH WAFFLES!!11!


Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 9128

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Incase nobody has picked it up yet (shame on you), the latest High Performance Imports has a photo article on making a Sil80 and a Onevia. Though, I think the magazine is worth buying just for the letters section- "I have an '03 auto Lancer, how can I improve its performance? Also I was looking at a Supra blah blah" "The way to improve the performance of the Lancer is to sell it to a hairdresser and buy the Supra." XD

(oh, and it comes with 2 bonus mags, so gez, buy it already!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sauce
Sakura Kinomoto


Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 7962
Location: Ziltoidia 9

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
lollers. Also, as a side note, a euro-spec S13 200SX was up for sale a while back advertised on skylines australia.
_________________
You have not convinced mighty Ziltoid, for I am so omniscient that if there were to be two omnisciences I would be both!

Prepare yourselves for the subjugation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
AnimeAdvance
Doraemon


Joined: 02 Dec 2005
Posts: 89
Location: East of Japan Watching its shores for MORE ANIME!

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Brum Brum lol Very Happy
_________________
Every Human wears a smiling mask to cover there true selves "for whats hidden inside would scare you"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Sauce
Sakura Kinomoto


Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 7962
Location: Ziltoidia 9

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
oh rofl
_________________
You have not convinced mighty Ziltoid, for I am so omniscient that if there were to be two omnisciences I would be both!

Prepare yourselves for the subjugation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
InGram
Madboard Mod


Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 3659
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ChrisZ wrote:
</end attempt at trying to fill in for Ingram> Wink

Much obliged.

Mr. Wendal wrote:
I think the later model 180's were called 200SX's in japan. They still produced them up until 1998, when the S14 was out, and called them 200SX's.

The names in Gran Turismo are often the European name of the model, like the Toyota Yaris, which is the Vitz in Japan, and the Echo here.

Pop-up headlight S13's are always called "180SX" in Japan. They were called that because they originally came with a 1.8L CA18 engine (later with the 2.0L SR20). They were called 200SX's in Europe because they were released with the 2.0L SR20. In America, they were 240SX's, because they came with a 2.4L KA engine.

Fixed-headlight S13/4/5's were always called "Silvia" in Japan. In other markets (like here), they were renamed 200SX or 240SX, since "Silvia" sounds too girly. Razz
_________________
Shine on, you crazy diamond...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mr Waffle
TEH WAFFLES!!11!


Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 9128

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
InGram wrote:
The names in Gran Turismo are often the European name of the model, like the Toyota Yaris, which is the Vitz in Japan, and the Echo here.


ARGH IT'S ALIVE KILL IT

I tend to play the American version of Gran Turismos, so I have to live with 240SXs Crying or Very sad the stupid thing of course is that other models keep their Japanese names like Altezza and the 86 GT-Apex... ¨_¨
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:      

Page 1 of 1


Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum