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Holy **** Madman licensed Cardcaptor Sakura.



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Holy **** Madman licensed Cardcaptor Sakura.
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Nargun
Siegfried Kircheis


Joined: 30 Aug 2001
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
It was the case. We often get confused with the US broadcast release, which is where the anime was hugely butchered to fit their broadcast standards.

All 70 episodes were dubbed (as were both movies). Sure, dialogue was changed to fit the mentality of the time, but it wasn't footage-cutting changes like in the USA.

I've lived in Australia when Cardcaptors was airing. The version here was much better and certainly warrants being included, making it a dual-audio release. I also saw the version that aired later in Canada, which at the time was the U.S. butchering of the anime. Canada did get our version, but they also got the butchered one later. That's how I got to see that one, all 40 or so that actually got aired. It was horrible.


You watched it, did you?

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=rec.arts.anime.misc+card+captors+nargun&qt_s=Search+Groups
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HimuraBattousai
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
If the anime market was a bowl of vegetables, and the Australian market was a snowpea, you'd be in one of the smaller peas within that snowpea.


I know I'm in a clear minority in a number of ways in the Australian anime market, but I don't think I'm such a rarity with regards to this.

OniV2 wrote:
The reason the R1 release goes for so much on Ebay is because it's the only western release of CCS thus far - and it's been discontinued. It's a collector's item at this point, and in no way reflects the demand for the product.


No, it does reflect demand for the product. See, with collector's items, there's two major factors in the prices they're worth: rarity and demand. If it's not rare and there is high demand, they have an average price. If it's rare and there's low demand, they have an average price. If it's not rare and there's low demand, they have a low price. If it's rare and in high demand, they have a high price.

OniV2 wrote:
The footage wasn't edited, and all 72 episodes were dubbed. That's quite intact.


I do not believe that this is accurate.
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Slykura
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Version that aired in Australia was also cut. it's the same dub. Believe me when we say we would of course much prefer to release a bilingual version.

It's not possible, ergo our release will remain uncut in the original Japanese dialogue.
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OniV2
Nene Romanova


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nargun wrote:

You watched it, did you?

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=rec.arts.anime.misc+card+captors+nargun&qt_s=Search+Groups


Yeah, I did. I was alive back then and at an age high enough to be able to comprehend the story. I was later able to compare what I watched to the original anime.

Are we getting into the realm of a minute of footage being removed?

HimuraBattousai wrote:
I know I'm in a clear minority in a number of ways in the Australian anime market, but I don't think I'm such a rarity with regards to this.


You are when it comes to CCS fans.

Quote:
No, it does reflect demand for the product. See, with collector's items, there's two major factors in the prices they're worth: rarity and demand. If it's not rare and there is high demand, they have an average price. If it's rare and there's low demand, they have an average price. If it's not rare and there's low demand, they have a low price. If it's rare and in high demand, they have a high price.


We're dealing with a release that was only done once. It was done once in one region and was fairly limited, due to only being response to the U.S. broadcast fiasco.

Each volume of the Pioneer release goes for about $60 (including shipping). This isn't over the top for a rare release and is a clear indicator that it's not in very high demand despite being out of print for over half a decade.

Quote:
I do not believe that this is accurate.


I believe it is, unless you're going to count the Americanisation and censorship of relationships as cutting.

Australia got all 70 episodes and both movies completely intact.

Slykura wrote:
Version that aired in Australia was also cut. it's the same dub.


Same dubbing studio (Nelvana), different broadcasters. The U.S. broadcast was cut in the sense that scenes were removed in full, with other episodes being removed entirely. The Australian version was just censored in a typically '90s fashion as broadcasters didn't really remove anything extra.

I imagine it's hard to find Nelvana's original cut, however.
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Sylontack
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
EDIT: Please disregard. I would prefer not to be involved any further in the end.
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OniV2
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah... I'm going to stop responding now too. Like, actually stop. Not really getting anywhere here anymore.
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Nargun
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:


Yeah, I did. I was alive back then and at an age high enough to be able to comprehend the story. I was later able to compare what I watched to the original anime.

Are we getting into the realm of a minute of footage being removed?


Minute of cuts makes it impracticable to do a bilingual release; the DVD seamless branching feature is a dog to program and never worked anyway. DVD players don't have big enough buffers.
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JESTER
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm a bit disapointed in the arguing over this. OniV2, you sound like Arbron who carried on about Gundam.

As for CCS, Sly did say that the Japanese release went for $1000 a pop and that's with the original license holder releasing it. I'd hate to think how much extra they'd charge MM for a blu-ray release. Even counting for international orders, the prices for sets would be a lot higher.

Like the saying goes. You want it cheap or you want it expensive. Supply and demand will determin the outcome. I can't see the demand for a blu-ray to be anything but expensive.
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Darth Tallis
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd love to have the series on Blu-ray, but I've resigned myself to the fact it will never happen here. Just being able to have the remastered series in any shape and form is a plus. As for the bilingual thing, I cannot see that working with bits of the show that were cut out. Unless an uncut English dub were to be commissioned, that won't happen. The only decent dub was the second movie, anyway.
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OniV2
Nene Romanova


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Since I was responded to specifically, I'll only respond to that stuff (I know, I can't help myself, plus it'd be rude not to).

Nargun wrote:
Minute of cuts makes it impracticable to do a bilingual release; the DVD seamless branching feature is a dog to program and never worked anyway. DVD players don't have big enough buffers.


If I remember correctly, Neon genesis Evangelion was able to be released with both the Cut and Uncut versions for specific episodes on a disc. When it comes to bilingual episodes, all it means is that not every episode could be dual audio - there might need to be a double up, which from what I could remember, really only warrants a single disc due to how many minute cuts were actually made.

It's not like it's impossible.

JESTER wrote:
I'm a bit disapointed in the arguing over this. OniV2, you sound like Arbron who carried on about Gundam.

As for CCS, Sly did say that the Japanese release went for $1000 a pop and that's with the original license holder releasing it. I'd hate to think how much extra they'd charge MM for a blu-ray release. Even counting for international orders, the prices for sets would be a lot higher.

Like the saying goes. You want it cheap or you want it expensive. Supply and demand will determin the outcome. I can't see the demand for a blu-ray to be anything but expensive.


...And I have no have no idea who Arbron is, haha.

CCS on Blu-Ray goes for AU$1000 now due to it being a discontinue release, it wasn't actually released at that price - it was released at a price more akin to around $750 (I remember the hype when it originally came out).

However, the price in Japan in no way reflects the potential price here. The Japanese Yen is worth next to nothing. Anime like CLANNAD went for literally hundreds of dollars when it was released in Japan - in the West it's gone for $50.95 on sites like Amazon (it's actually $90 retail). Obviously if it was produced in Australia, it'd probably be sold for up around $100-150, but it's still absolutely worlds away from Japanese prices and still perfectly affordable for the part of the market that does actually buy Blu-Ray.

...I won't correct you on your usage of supply and demand, that's another story for another thread.

Anyways, if no one else responds to me specifically, I'll stop responding. Otherwise, I won't start any new branches of discussion with anyone else.
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Kirben
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
Australia got all 70 episodes and both movies completely intact.

The complete series (and movies?) were only shown by Cartoon Network on pay-TV though. Only 35 episodes of season 1 were shown on Cheez TV at the time. And the international English dub still had changes, as already stated.

The only way to include an uncut English version, would be the English dub from Animax, but that is unlikely.

I expect many people will be interested in this DVD release, because they didn't have the chance to see the complete series of Cardcaptor Sakura before.
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StorminNorman
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's probably worth noting that the "international" dub uses the Cardcaptors names, so you have to put up with Tomoyo being Madison etc etc.

Honestly, even if it's uncut, the changes to the names and other minor things make it worthless to include.
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Dark Master corvette3
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
StorminNorman wrote:
It's probably worth noting that the "international" dub uses the Cardcaptors names, so you have to put up with Tomoyo being Madison etc etc.

Honestly, even if it's uncut, the changes to the names and other minor things make it worthless to include.


Who was it that dubbed CCS again? wasn't it 4Kids? *Shudders*.
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Knight of L-sama
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dark Master corvette3 wrote:
Who was it that dubbed CCS again? wasn't it 4Kids? *Shudders*.


Nelvana actually.
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OniV2
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kirben wrote:
[..]


The complete series (and movies?) were only shown by Cartoon Network on pay-TV though. Only 35 episodes of season 1 were shown on Cheez TV at the time. And the international English dub still had changes, as already stated.

The only way to include an uncut English version, would be the English dub from Animax, but that is unlikely.

I expect many people will be interested in this DVD release, because they didn't have the chance to see the complete series of Cardcaptor Sakura before.


Being on paid TV is a moot point.

The international dub has changes, but they're not changes to the same degree as in the USA. Nothing plot-wise, other than the minor cousin relationship, was really removed. In the USA over five episodes at the start of CCS were removed just to surely be rid of possible incest. Incidentally that's why the plot was so different for Cardcaptors in the USA. Things just had to keep getting removed, until they were left with 40 episodes (with an ending, it wasn't just cut there and never seen again) and what was essentially an almost original plotline (AKA a very dumbed down version of CCS).
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Feball3001
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
After seeing Tsubasa Chronicles I always hope that the same cast would re-do an English dub of Card Captors.

I also thought that 4kids did the dub but thats only because most of the anime that was shown on Cheese TV at the time seemed to mostly be dubbed by 4kids.
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Timesplitter 01
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
[..]
In the USA over five episodes at the start of CCS were removed just to surely be rid of possible incest. Incidentally that's why the plot was so different for Cardcaptors in the USA. Things just had to keep getting removed, until they were left with 40 episodes (with an ending, it wasn't just cut there and never seen again) and what was essentially an almost original plotline (AKA a very dumbed down version of CCS).


There are a few anime out there that would be half the length if you removed all the incest references, whether it be jokes or implied.

Funny enough there are some American/Uk produced shows (real life) that also touch/imply upon the subject and yet remain uncensored.


Anyways I hope CCS sells well Smile
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OniV2
Nene Romanova


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Timesplitter 01 wrote:
There are a few anime out there that would be half the length if you removed all the incest references, whether it be jokes or implied.

Funny enough there are some American/Uk produced shows (real life) that also touch/imply upon the subject and yet remain uncensored.


Yeah, but this was in super children's programming censoring '90s USA. They did such censorship to much anime licensed in the USA in the '90s, just not to the degree that broadcasters requested Nelvana do when it was being broadcast there.

The USA can be quite silly.
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Nargun
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
[..]



Being on paid TV is a moot point.

The international dub has changes, but they're not changes to the same degree as in the USA. Nothing plot-wise, other than the minor cousin relationship, was really removed. In the USA over five episodes at the start of CCS were removed just to surely be rid of possible incest. Incidentally that's why the plot was so different for Cardcaptors in the USA. Things just had to keep getting removed, until they were left with 40 episodes (with an ending, it wasn't just cut there and never seen again) and what was essentially an almost original plotline (AKA a very dumbed down version of CCS).


The limitations to including the Nelvana dub are chiefly technical. SPECIFICALLY.

Seamless branching causes a slight pause at the branch points because DVD drives have high seek times and the players don't have read buffers large enough to cope with the delay. This means that seamless branching can basically only be used at silent fade-to-black-and-up-again scene transitions.

This in addition to being a complete dog to program [and thus expensive, labour isn't cheap]. The cuts to CCS don't occur at these sorts of points so you can't use seamless branching to do a two-edit release.

mkay so far? Now, Madman have included multiple edits of the same material on a few occasions: they do this by, um... putting both versions on the disk in-full. That being the only way that works reliably. Which you can do for a handful of episodes in EVA, but for CCS, a fairly long show with every episode needing two versions... you're doubling the already-fairly-high number of disks required, doubling the setup and manufacture costs... basically doubling the cost of disk manufacture in-toto or more than that.

For a show that sold like such a complete and utter dog that it was on remainder within about a year of release and was IIRC virtually the first madman DVD to go out of print.

D'ye think that's a smart plan? Everyone who wants to own CardCaptors has it already. Which is basically noone.
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OniV2
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nargun wrote:
mkay so far? Now, Madman have included multiple edits of the same material on a few occasions: they do this by, um... putting both versions on the disk in-full. That being the only way that works reliably. Which you can do for a handful of episodes in EVA, but for CCS, a fairly long show with every episode needing two versions... you're doubling the already-fairly-high number of disks required, doubling the setup and manufacture costs... basically doubling the cost of disk manufacture in-toto or more than that.


Not every episode of CCS was cut in such a fashion. Only some were.

Quote:
For a show that sold like such a complete and utter dog that it was on remainder within about a year of release and was IIRC virtually the first madman DVD to go out of print.

D'ye think that's a smart plan? Everyone who wants to own CardCaptors has it already. Which is basically noone.


The whole point of releases like this is generally nostalgia - do you get that?

Cardcaptors selling like a dog then really has no reflection on how it'd do now. Digimon was released as dub-only when Madman could have probably got the license to the Japanese release and then translated it - it's playing on nostalgia. Those that buy this release will probably really only do it because they didn't get the R1 DVDs. It's more feasible to sell Cardcaptors along with it, that's the anime a lot of the market recognises. It's why FUNimation's 'remastered' Dragon Ball Z collections from a few years back sold better than Kai and the Dragon Boxes. People still want that original voice cast and the Falconer sound track. It's what they find to be nostalgic.

Quote:
Seamless branching causes a slight pause at the branch points because DVD drives have high seek times and the players don't have read buffers large enough to cope with the delay. This means that seamless branching can basically only be used at silent fade-to-black-and-up-again scene transitions.

This in addition to being a complete dog to program [and thus expensive, labour isn't cheap]. The cuts to CCS don't occur at these sorts of points so you can't use seamless branching to do a two-edit release.


Your point on seamless branching isn't going anywhere, as you're basically just refuting yourself - you brought it up, not me. I never even continued that point of discussion, as I do realise it's not plausible.
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Timesplitter 01
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
[..]


The USA can be quite silly.


Something we agree on Razz
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Timesplitter 01 wrote:
[..]



Something we agree on Razz


/thread Laughing
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HimuraBattousai
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
Not every episode of CCS was cut in such a fashion. Only some were.


Enough episodes of a fairly long show to make it more trouble than it's truly worth to do a bilingual release.

OniV2 wrote:
Cardcaptors selling like a dog then really has no reflection on how it'd do now. Digimon was released as dub-only when Madman could have probably got the license to the Japanese release and then translated it - it's playing on nostalgia.


No, really, it does. From my point of view (selling DVDs etc at retail) Digimon isn't exactly flying off the shelves.
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OniV2
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
HimuraBattousai wrote:

Enough episodes of a fairly long show to make it more trouble than it's truly worth to do a bilingual release.


Someone would need to tally how many episodes actually have cut footage then, because I honestly don't remember it being many. Just the first few episodes, and some near the end... For obvious reasons


Quote:
No, really, it does. From my point of view (selling DVDs etc at retail) Digimon isn't exactly flying off the shelves.


I was a child when the first season of Digimon was popular, and back then it was extremely popular. Digimon stuff was flying off the shelves. Now it's not, for some reason. So, I'd say how it was selling back when it was a thing has no reflection on how it'll do today.
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HimuraBattousai
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
I was a child when the first season of Digimon was popular, and back then it was extremely popular. Digimon stuff was flying off the shelves. Now it's not, for some reason. So, I'd say how it was selling back when it was a thing has no reflection on how it'll do today.


So, you're also saying that nostalgia isn't as great a force as you were saying before. Which, I suppose is the point I was trying to make, but not doing it very well.
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Nargun
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
Someone would need to tally how many episodes actually have cut footage then


Well, hop to it, then. You're the one who cares, you do it.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
HimuraBattousai wrote:
So, you're also saying that nostalgia isn't as great a force as you were saying before. Which, I suppose is the point I was trying to make, but not doing it very well.


Before I was stating that nostalgia is generally the driving force behind releases like this. However, that doesn't mean it always works. So, the way something sold earlier doesn't always reflect how it'll do now. Cardcaptors might have sold like poop on a stick before, but it might do alright now due to nostalgia. One never knows. It'd probably still do better on store shelves than a sub-only release - then parents can pawn it off on children.

I guess no matter what, CCS isn't really going to be flying off shelves?

Nargun wrote:
Well, hop to it, then. You're the one who cares, you do it.


I believe you're the one who got up on my case about it, being the one stating it can't be done and all that jazz. Confused

So, you hop to it.
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought this might be of interest since it's relating to Blu-ray licensing issues, though in this case it's Manga UK. Since OniV2 keeps on wanting a blu-ray release for CCS, I thought this might answer 1 of his questions.

It also talks about issues between MM's and Manga UK's Blu-ray titles.

No doubt MM also faces the same issues. This was taken of Vol 1 of MyM Magazine that I bought yesterday.


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StorminNorman
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Because most of the PS3s in Australia are American ones"

Whut
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Tenko
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
StorminNorman wrote:
"Because most of the PS3s in Australia are American ones"

Whut


I second that! I am pretty sure Australian and New Zealand PS3's are using the same region locking and coding as our UK PAL territory brothers. To my knowledge our systems only allow Zone 4 DVD and Zone B Bluray. And Zone B is the same zone as what is used in the UK. I'm confused >.<
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The Tragic Man
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Whut" was my response to this, too. I had a think, and I seem to recall some importation law that the EU has. There was some kerfuffle over vendors selling imported consoles before offical release date over there, I think. I don't know if the law only applied to third party importers or to everyone.

Although I don't see how it could affect the ability to play Blu-rays, could Euro models be slightly altered, or indeed manufactured in the EU (unlikely, I know), because of above law? Or is the spokesman just talking out his proverbial?
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Sethscar
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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
/facepalm idiots.
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OniV2
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think the spokesperson is just speaking out of his proverbial.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Good news~ Though I did buy half the series in a set from America a few years back for about $300. Darn, now it's gonna be worth nothing -_-'
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
glitchhunter wrote:
Good news~ Though I did buy half the series in a set from America a few years back for about $300. Darn, now it's gonna be worth nothing -_-'


No, I'm pretty sure it'll still be worth the same amount. Limited release from Pioneer and all.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure it'll still be worth the same amount. Limited release from Pioneer and all.


No, I'm pretty sure they won't be worth as much. There being a release of it readily available to buy new and all. "Limited release" isn't the only factor in how much something is worth, after all.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
HimuraBattousai wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure they won't be worth as much. There being a release of it readily available to buy new and all. "Limited release" isn't the only factor in how much something is worth, after all.


I don't quite think you know how this 'collectors item' thing works. Not only was the Pioneer release limited in its nature, it also comes from a different master, features different cover art, different 'extras', probably a different translation. Did I also mention it was limited?

Sure, you can just buy Madman's release - if you just want to watch the show. Wink I don't think anyone that was importing the Pioneer release for $300 was doing it just so they could watch it.

But, if you don't believe me, don't. Just go check Ebay after Madman finally starts releasing their collections.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
I don't think anyone that was importing the Pioneer release for $300 was doing it just so they could watch it.


$600, and yes, I was.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I bought the initial release when they were still being released as single volumes. This was back when the dollar was worth jack ****, so I'm sure I spent a hefty amount for it and watched it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
I don't quite think you know how this 'collectors item' thing works. Not only was the Pioneer release limited in its nature, it also comes from a different master, features different cover art, different 'extras', probably a different translation. Did I also mention it was limited?


I think I understand how it works better than you. None of those things make the Pioneer release intrinsically valuable. They may make the Pioneer release more desirable to some, particularly if Madman somehow makes this set made from HD masters look worse than the older release, or botch the cover art and/or translation (all pretty unlikely), but otherwise would only really matter to someone who absolutely has to have the earliest version of everything.

And all "limited" really means in terms of collectibles is that the manufacturer officially made about as many as they thought would sell at the time anyway.

OniV2 wrote:
Sure, you can just buy Madman's release - if you just want to watch the show. Wink I don't think anyone that was importing the Pioneer release for $300 was doing it just so they could watch it.


If literally all you want to do is watch the show, you've probably downloaded it or got a bootleg set already anyway. There is a class of collector that simply wants to own a legitimate release of a show and isn't particularly fussed if it's a rare version, or has some specific picture on the cover, or some specific extras or whatever. It's the existence of enough of these with deep enough pockets that make the Pioneer sets worth as much as they currently are. Once they can get a much more affordable set instead, demand for the old Pioneer release will drop and with it the price.

The Pioneer set will still remain valuable to the other class of collector that is fixated on whatever attributes of the Pioneer set, but it won't be worth as much money. It'll be worth less, though still a decent amount, but not worthless.

OniV2 wrote:
But, if you don't believe me, don't. Just go check Ebay after Madman finally starts releasing their collections.


I just checked Ebay, and the only complete sets currently listed are the Japanese boxset and bootlegs. Still, if you can show me a Pioneer set that sold for $600 after Madman's release, then I'll believe you.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
HimuraBattousai wrote:
I think I understand how it works better than you. None of those things make the Pioneer release intrinsically valuable. They may make the Pioneer release more desirable to some, particularly if Madman somehow makes this set made from HD masters look worse than the older release, or botch the cover art and/or translation (all pretty unlikely), but otherwise would only really matter to someone who absolutely has to have the earliest version of everything.

And all "limited" really means in terms of collectibles is that the manufacturer officially made about as many as they thought would sell at the time anyway.


I actually don't think you do. Really, I don't. You're putting 'I want to watch the show' above someone who cares about the fact that it's a hard to find release - or what you labelled as someone who 'absolutely has to have the earliest version of everything'.

Quote:
I just checked Ebay, and the only complete sets currently listed are the Japanese boxset and bootlegs. Still, if you can show me a Pioneer set that sold for $600 after Madman's release, then I'll believe you.


Then we've got some waiting to do, don't we? Checking Ebay now means nothing, hence after.

Quote:
There is a class of collector that simply wants to own a legitimate release of a show and isn't particularly fussed if it's a rare version, or has some specific picture on the cover, or some specific extras or whatever.


Then, hey, guess what? They're not really a collector. They're buying anime, sure, but they're not doing it for the purpose of collecting.

Quote:
It's the existence of enough of these with deep enough pockets that make the Pioneer sets worth as much as they currently are.


I'd class those folk as legitimate collectors, rather than folk who simply buy anime to watch it - you know, the folk complaining about expensive anime?

The Tragic Man wrote:
$600, and yes, I was.


I'd be incline to call silly for doing so.

Darth Tallis wrote:
I bought the initial release when they were still being released as single volumes. This was back when the dollar was worth jack ****, so I'm sure I spent a hefty amount for it and watched it.


Pretty sure that's an entirely different reason for spending a lot of money on Pioneer's release. Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
Then, hey, guess what? They're not really a collector. They're buying anime, sure, but they're not doing it for the purpose of collecting.


Demographics!

There'd be, very rough guess, between five and twenty of your "real collectors" in melbourne, which is somewhere between five hundred and two thousand in the entire english-speaking world [based on fifteen years' personal experience with the melbourne anime-watching community, running clubs and conventions]. Effective: the number of people who ever buy shows twice would probably be twice or three times that, but not every collector is going to collect every show.

Spreading that over population and income and popularity-of-anime gives me, rough guess, through the english-speaking world, say... between five hundred and two thousand potential owners of Pioneer's Card Captor Sakura release [many of whom, probably most, would already have it, but that doesn't matter here.].

Anime is produced in the low thousands of units. At a lowball guess, maybe three thousand Pioneer CCS sets would have been produced.

There are probably less than two thousand people who might want Pioneer CCS sets enough to buy them at any sort of premium.

You see?

[there isn't actually that much demand for first-edition books. What there is is a limited supply, and the supply is limited because of attrition losses since printing. Anime DVDs weren't printed that long ago, so there's been very little time for attrition losse to have come into play: the supply is still 95% or more of the original supply, well more than enough to satisfy the extremely-limited collector market]
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nargun wrote:
Demographics!

There'd be, very rough guess, between five and twenty of your "real collectors" in melbourne, which is somewhere between five hundred and two thousand in the entire english-speaking world [based on fifteen years' personal experience with the melbourne anime-watching community, running clubs and conventions]. Effective: the number of people who ever buy shows twice would probably be twice or three times that, but not every collector is going to collect every show.

Spreading that over population and income and popularity-of-anime gives me, rough guess, through the english-speaking world, say... between five hundred and two thousand potential owners of Pioneer's Card Captor Sakura release [many of whom, probably most, would already have it, but that doesn't matter here.].

Anime is produced in the low thousands of units. At a lowball guess, maybe three thousand Pioneer CCS sets would have been produced.

There are probably less than two thousand people who might want Pioneer CCS sets enough to buy them at any sort of premium.

You see?


I see that the point you're making is that there aren't very many of these 'real collectors', which is likely correct when it comes to CCS. I don't think that'll degrade the price of the Pioneer sets though.

However, I think you ended up going around in full circle. You started off by making a point about the small amount of folk that'd want the sets at a premium, then stated that there probably weren't many sets to begin with and that it's almost within scale of the amount of folk that would want the set.

If the amount of people willing to pay a premium went down after Madman's release, then yes, probably the price of Pioneer's set would go down. But I doubt that greatly, seeing as those folk willing to pay the premium likely aren't just looking to buy CCS - they want to buy Pioneer's CCS. If anything, market saturation by Madman's release will likely drive the price of Pioneer's release up due to it becoming much harder to find.

I'd say the demographic for Pioneer's set currently won't change after Madman's release.

Quote:
[there isn't actually that much demand for first-edition books. What there is is a limited supply, and the supply is limited because of attrition losses since printing.]


Depends on the book, doesn't it?
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HimuraBattousai
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
I actually don't think you do. Really, I don't. You're putting 'I want to watch the show' above someone who cares about the fact that it's a hard to find release - or what you labelled as someone who 'absolutely has to have the earliest version of everything'.


No, I'm still pretty sure I do. You're putting "I want this specific format of this thing" over "I want this thing". Which is fine, if that's the way you like to collect things, but not everyone who collects stuff has their priorities exactly the same way you do.

OniV2 wrote:
Then we've got some waiting to do, don't we? Checking Ebay now means nothing, hence after.


A before and after comparison would be helpful.

OniV2 wrote:
Then, hey, guess what? They're not really a collector. They're buying anime, sure, but they're not doing it for the purpose of collecting.


Ah, I see, no true Scotsman, and all that. Wrong. Anyone who collects something is a collector. They may not be a hardcore collector, but it's not like you have to pass a not-taking-figures-out-of-the-packaging and only-getting-limited-edition-first-printing-discs exam administered by the International Collector Certification Board to be called a collector.

And even leaving aside the question of whether or not some of the people in question are "real" collectors, the fact is that what many people who want(ed) the Pioneer release truly want is not that specific release, but an official, complete uncut release of the series, and once there's more supply of that via Madman, there will be less demand for the Pioneer release and thus will not be quite as valuable.
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The Tragic Man
Abriel Nei Debrusc Borl Paryun Lafiel


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
I'd be incline to call silly for doing so.


Whatever the actual cost US dollar I paid was, it worked out to be about $35 per disc, which was currently, or at least recently, what Madman singles were RRPed at. So not a silly price at all. Just a small premium to get an out of print title, complete.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
HimuraBattousai wrote:
Ah, I see, no true Scotsman, and all that. Wrong. Anyone who collects something is a collector. They may not be a hardcore collector, but it's not like you have to pass a not-taking-figures-out-of-the-packaging and only-getting-limited-edition-first-printing-discs exam administered by the International Collector Certification Board to be called a collector.


Ah, but if you're acquiring it are you really 'collecting'? The act of collecting an item does not inherently make you a 'collector' just because you're collecting it. Why are you collecting that item, and for what purpose?

I own a lot of anime, but I wouldn't class myself as a 'collector of anime'.

Quote:
And even leaving aside the question of whether or not some of the people in question are "real" collectors, the fact is that what many people who want(ed) the Pioneer release truly want is not that specific release, but an official, complete uncut release of the series, and once there's more supply of that via Madman, there will be less demand for the Pioneer release and thus will not be quite as valuable.


The Pioneer release will be still regarded as somewhat of a rarity, it's why it's still being talked about - even now.

Honestly, as this point you've already mentioned the popular alternative (downloading). Most folk these days that just want to watch anime would have that that alternative by now, but that's not lowered the value of the Pioneer release- has it? I can't see how a release that isn't as easy to acquire as the current alternative (which is, by the way, in a greater quality) will effect the Pioneer release's value.

Let's take Mega Man X on the SNES:

The PAL release sells for upwards of $80 on Ebay (over $300 mint), but the U.S. copy? $40 or so (around $150 mint). Due to the nature of the current day, being able to have a SNES console (or clone console) with compatibility for both NTSC and PAL isn't hard to acquire (and it's cheap). Plus, there are ROMs and the like making playing the game not very hard to do. So, why does the PAL copy still go for so much more than the U.S. copy? The U.S. copy is much more readily available, and it's 60Hz as opposed to 50Hz.

This situation will likely be the same.

Quote:
No, I'm still pretty sure I do. You're putting "I want this specific format of this thing" over "I want this thing". Which is fine, if that's the way you like to collect things, but not everyone who collects stuff has their priorities exactly the same way you do.


I'm pretty sure we're no longer talking about formats anymore, numpnuts.

The Tragic Man wrote:
Whatever the actual cost US dollar I paid was, it worked out to be about $35 per disc, which was currently, or at least recently, what Madman singles were RRPed at. So not a silly price at all. Just a small premium to get an out of print title, complete.


Yes, but you paid the premium to specifically get that release, didn't you? One that was out of print.

You could have just bought a bootleg copy or something. Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:

Yes, but you paid the premium to specifically get that release, didn't you? One that was out of print.

You could have just bought a bootleg copy or something. Wink


No, not specifically that release. If I'd found a cheaper legit release, I'd have gone for that. Why on earth would I willingly pay for a bootleg?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Tragic Man wrote:

No, not specifically that release. If I'd found a cheaper legit release, I'd have gone for that. Why on earth would I willingly pay for a bootleg?


But it was still the same release, you would have just taken it from someone selling it for less?

And about bootlegs, I don't know. People like to, and sometimes it's worthwhile. Some bootleg copies of the Pioneer collection are on Amazon, and the reviews aren't half bad - I was surprised.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
OniV2 wrote:
Ah, but if you're acquiring it are you really 'collecting'? The act of collecting an item does not inherently make you a 'collector' just because you're collecting it. Why are you collecting that item, and for what purpose?

I own a lot of anime, but I wouldn't class myself as a 'collector of anime'.

World English Dictionary (emphasis mine) wrote:
collector (kəˈlɛktə)

n
1. a person or thing that collects
2. a person employed to collect debts, rents, etc
3. the head of a district administration in India
4. a person who collects or amasses objects as a hobby


OniV2 wrote:
The Pioneer release will be still regarded as somewhat of a rarity, it's why it's still being talked about - even now.


No, the reason it's still being talked about even now is that to date it's been the only full legit subtitled release of it. And how this upcoming release will compare to it.

OniV2 wrote:
Honestly, as this point you've already mentioned the popular alternative (downloading). Most folk these days that just want to watch anime would have that that alternative by now, but that's not lowered the value of the Pioneer release- has it? I can't see how a release that isn't as easy to acquire as the current alternative (which is, by the way, in a greater quality) will effect the Pioneer release's value.


Thing is, downloading it is not an alternative for those who want to have the show on DVD. An alternative for those who just want to watch the show, yes, but that's not who we're talking about. And how are you so certain that the Pioneer release will be greater quality than the Madman one? It's not yet out to make the comparison.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
HimuraBattousai wrote:
No, the reason it's still being talked about even now is that to date it's been the only full legit subtitled release of it. And how this upcoming release will compare to it.


I wasn't talking about it in reference to this thread. :/

And cute, you tried to bring the dictionary into this - and you even highlighted the basic meaning, that can relate to anyone doing the action known as 'collecting'.

I'd not relate 'buying anime because I like anime' to 'collecting anime'. As it says there, 'amasses objects'.

Quote:
Thing is, downloading it is not an alternative for those who want to have the show on DVD. An alternative for those who just want to watch the show, yes, but that's not who we're talking about.


Download, then burn to a disc. There you have it on DVD.

Quote:
And how are you so certain that the Pioneer release will be greater quality than the Madman one? It's not yet out to make the comparison.


Not sure how you've come to the conclusion that this is what we're debating here. I never once stated this, only you have. Take a gander at my past responses.
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