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Reflecting Reflection



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Reflecting Reflection
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Weis
Meryl Strife


Joined: 14 Dec 2001
Posts: 8075
Location: A Dip in the Suburbs...

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reflecting Reflection Reply with quote
Spoilers for those that haven't seen this yet.

Now that Ive seen Reflection I can not avoid all of those spoiler filled posts all over the forum, YAH!!!! *Ahem*

Onto the actual show itself, I will honoustly say it was one of the most powerful pieces of anime I have seen in quite a while. I couldn't believe myself but at the end I almost literally had a tear in my eye when Kaoru was reunited with Kenshin. The loyalty and love Kaoru showed for him was just unbelievable yet somehow totally in character and something you would expect. The way she even exposed herself to the awful disease Kenshin had just so she would have something that bonds her with him, and the way she remains at home to welcome him and Kenji showed the power of her love for him. Dont get me wrong, it certainly wasn't a happy love story by any means!

Lots of people had said this was rubbish and didnt reflect (hehe, pun ^_^) upon the true Jinchu arc or whatever (which Im sure is quite true), but I thought this to be an excellent piece of anime. On top of being an excellent show its also an excellent DVD with a beautiful anamorphic widescreen picture and a solid Japanese track. It also has a cool extra inteviewing the Japanese Seiyuu's! All up, absolutely great stuff - those who havent watched it, if you've finished volume 14 of Kenshin, get it now!

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Mi-ra-Ku-ru-mi!

[This message has been edited by Weis (edited 20 May 2003).]
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maddog
Koyomi Mizuhara


Joined: 18 Feb 2001
Posts: 1881
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i agree that i enjoyed reflection alot more than i thought i would after hearing people's opinions on it.
How anyone could see it as "jinchuu animated" is beyond me, and something that I believe just arose due to the hype of some new kenshin being animated and the public's demand for jinchuu.
So, seeing as it wasn't meant to be jinchuu animated, I see reflection as a good piece, if somewhat disturbing as i think some things just don't sit right.
the main disappointment I can think of was kenshin always leaving kaoru to wonder. I really dislike this as during the whole time kenshin has been with kaoru the whole theme of it was that he was no longer a wonderer and had settled down somewhere that he could call home. This was portrayed well in the manga when everyone leaves the dojo except for him, and I've always had the image of kenshin becoming a good father in my head.
So although the whole "kenshin goes off wondering, kaoru will always stay and wait for him" was touching, and led to a finale that also brought me to the verge of getting all teary eyed, I really don't like the whole concept of it
Other than that reflection was a nice piece, not the best, but not as bad as people make it out to be.
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Requiem
Linn Syun-Rock Dreu Haider Jinto


Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 2259
Location: Newcastle

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
YES! Finally someone agrees with me!

*gets up on soapbox*

I thought that seisouhen was a near perfect wrap up to an awsome anime. The fact that Kenshin finally was able to atone and give up his sword, not to mention having his scar fade away, was symbolised in his name change.
The flashacks from Kaorus point of view, showing all they had been through together, along with her obvious and undying love for him, all showed how much she cared for him, and him for her. as for him going off, that is what Kenshin felt he must do to atone for his sins, and Kaoru accepted that, and was always waiting for him to come back. It was also good to see what happened to some of the other characters, especially Yahiko and Kenji.
And finally, Kenshin was, until the end, unbeatable. The fact that he wasn't defeated in any sort of battle, and was killed by disease, means that he truly deserved the title of "the greatest".
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2593
Location: My nan's house

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I was gonna wait for more people to post before I put my thoughts about Seisouhen in but I'm just gonna post it now.

I've still got to say that I really don't like these OVA's and that it is a complete crock of ****.

There is soo many things wrong with the story in Seisouhen that I've posted before in another thread and I'm too lazy to type it all again.

Once again I will say that when I watched it I wasn't expecting the Jinchuu Arc and the fact that it isn't Jinchuu isn't the reason I hate. I hate it because they butchered the whole story of Rurouni Kenshin (Tokyo, Kyoto and Jinchuu Arcs) and the fact they make some of the characters act in ways totally opposite to those characters (example Hiko.)
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merric
Shinji Ikari


Joined: 12 Jan 2001
Posts: 3444
Location: Brisbane

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've posted my opinions before, and I'm sure you all know them, but here goes again...

Seisouhen just isn't ... Kenshin. Whenever I watch it, I feel like I'm watching some other TV show that just has characters with the same design. So much of the philosophy and thought in the original series is thrown out of the window.

The story jolts back and forth and doesn't develop a rhythm. The first episode is basically a summary of the series and, which is a shame because it means that a whole 30 minutes of potential plot development is essentially blown. I'm sure that there's new stuff, and new fights that they could've crammed into that first half hour.

The character designs try to walk a path between the serious tones of the first OVA, and the endearing designs of the TV series/manga, but fails at both. Why not just pick one and use it? If you want to tell a sad story (why do they do this? Kenshin is a happy story, not a sad one ), then they should have used the superior designs in the Trust/Betrayal OVAs.

The saccharine is piled on, and some people seem to like it, but I found it almost nauseous. It's very easy to build up emotion surrounding the death of a much-loved character, and that's the road that the creators have taken here - to kill off Kenshin simply for the purpose of a brief tear-jerker, without bothering to give us any good reasons for why he needs to be killed off. Why couldn't he just live happily, as was the point of the original ending? Did I miss something, or wasn't the point of the entire TV and manga series that you don't have to kill or die to atone or make a difference? Why are they changing that now? I couldn't see any good reason for altering that, other than as a cheap way to provoke some emotions.

Further to this, what's up with Kenshin infecting Kaoru? Did he forget that he once told Aoshi, Shishio and Yumi that dying for someone doesn't make you happy? Why has his opinion changed since then? Again, it isn't explained.

Kenshin, meanwhile, has apparently learned nothing from the Kyoto Arc, because he's quite happy to abandon Kaoru and his son, and go traipsing off to China for a reason that's never properly explained. If he's unwilling to fight, the Japanese army could have no conceivable urgent need for him, but then why are people coming to his dojo begging him to go? He isn't a superpowered warrior anymore, he refuses to fight or train other people to fight, and he has no other skills.

The end of the manga series was a continuation of what had gone on before. It built on the characters, and gave a meaningful closure to the story. It gave us the background for Kenshin, and then resolved it in a quite satisfying and fitting way. All of the characters were wrapped up to some degree.

Instead, we get a disjointed series of images and flashbacks, a butchered plot and an hour full of character contradictions.

Does Seisouhen have good points? I think it does. The music's good, it's certainly well-animated and the fight scenes that there are, are quite well choreographed and thought through. It's just a shame that there's not enough of the good stuff.
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natnosaj
Hajime Saitou


Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 127
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ummmm ditto merric

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It is my greatest fear that all new anime will look like Scryed, sound like Kajiura Yuki, and be produced by Gonzo.
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maddog
Koyomi Mizuhara


Joined: 18 Feb 2001
Posts: 1881
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
merric, i think your opinion on the OVA's are a tad harsh.
I felt that the point of the OVA was to show kenshin and kaoru's relationship through kaoru's perspective, a "reflection" of their time together. Hence it starts from where kaoru meets kenshin, and goes until the time they are seperated.
Therefore, it will have to involve what you consider recaps of the series, and it will involve kenshin dying (the time they are seperated). The story shows kaoru's feelings for kenshin develop, and culminate with kenshin finally finding peace and his scar fading.
However I do agree that I dislike kenshin's character in the OVA. The way he abandons his family just wasn't right, same as when he infected kaoru. Weis said it was kaoru showing her unconditional love for him, but to be honest i was squirming during the scene because if kenshin really loved kaoru he wouldn't have done it.
Personbot, I disagree with your assessment of Hiko. Although it looks like he's training kenji, he never actually says that he is, and in fact he states something along the lines of "remember, I have no desire to pass on the mitsurugi, it will die with me which is the way it should be". So that got me to thinking that maybe he was just overlooking kenji's development but not actually teaching him the mitsurugi school.

Anyways, to sum up, I disagree with merric's points because i see reflection as a story told from kaoru's viewpoint and thus, it required most of the storytelling faults merric pointed out, and I still think the OVA's are a decent addition.
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Wing-Gundam
Motoko Kusanagi


Joined: 10 Feb 2001
Posts: 857
Location: Adelaide, Australia

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have to agree with merric when it comes to most points. Why did they decide to, in a 2 episode OAV, use most of the first episode to go back and do all of the fight seqeunces again. It wastes valuable time where they could bring new elements into the story.
Because it is only 2 OAV`s, no-one expects it to be Jinchuu, thus my question is why even bother bringing Enshi back into the story to have a pathetic 15 minute fight sequence. If you want to focus on the characters, then focus on them fully, don`t include a half assed 15 minute fight scene if it isn`t needed, and really, it isn`t. The Enshi fight is pretty much summing something up with hasn`t first been presented. Either do the damn fight sequence, or don`t. I think I would have liked Reflections quite a bit more if they just left Enshi out of it, and used the extra 15 minutes to develop more on Kenshin and Kaoru.

It just feels like Reflections has just been thrown together for the hell of it, to make more money for a sucessful franchise. It`s not all that bad, I suppose, but they could have done it a lot better in my opinion. By leaving out all the unneccesary bits (most of the first episode, the Enshi fight etc) they could have devoted more time to the characters, which would have made it more successful in what it was trying to achieve.

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"In this world which will ultimately collapse, dreams and hopes are meaningless" - X Tv Opening
"Dreams and Love are nothing but expedient illusions, endlessly avoiding reality" - Scryed Opening
"The end has not been written, and the title of strongest has not yet been bestowed" - Shinomori Aoshi
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Weis
Meryl Strife


Joined: 14 Dec 2001
Posts: 8075
Location: A Dip in the Suburbs...

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A couple of people have mentioned there dislike for Kenshin during the OVA's and I must admit that I too feel that way (I didnt mention him at all in my first post). Kenshin betrays Kaoru really by exposing her to his illness and allowing her to become infected with a horrible and unpleasent disease, even though he would risk his life constantly to protect her. Though I feel more about the fact Kaoru is allowing this to happen to her as this is a sign of true love. While talking about Kenshin, I also find it out of character that he would just leave to travel and then leave again to go off and fight, leaving not only his wife but also his son. While he admits to her he isnt a good father or husband, it's still something I would have saw him doing.

One more thing, Weis has the soundtrack to this (along with the even more brilliant 1st OVA soundtrack) and I would recommend it to anyone, great stuff indeedy!

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Mi-ra-Ku-ru-mi!
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2593
Location: My nan's house

PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by maddog:
Personbot, I disagree with your assessment of Hiko. Although it looks like he's training kenji, he never actually says that he is, and in fact he states something along the lines of "remember, I have no desire to pass on the mitsurugi, it will die with me which is the way it should be". So that got me to thinking that maybe he was just overlooking kenji's development but not actually teaching him the mitsurugi school.



Like I said that is totally out of character for Hiko. Because he saw how much the Hiten Mitsurugi style hurt Kenshin he realised that it wasn't needed anymore. That has got to be the biggest crock of ****. Anyone who has seen the Kyoto Arc would know that Hiko would never say anything like that. When he was fighting the giant Fuji he stated how disappointed he was that there were so few true warriors left so why would he stop passing the Hiten style on?
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mangadude
Isamu Dyson


Joined: 13 Jan 2001
Posts: 5109
Location: Adelaide, SA, Australia

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2003 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would agree with the majority of the people here and say that Reflection was a really powerful piece of anime. Hell I almost cried at the end. I am however a fan of happy endings so I'll stick with the ending of the jinchuu arc over this anyday.
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Requiem
Linn Syun-Rock Dreu Haider Jinto


Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 2259
Location: Newcastle

PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2003 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Re: Hiko

A few points i would like to make:
1. Hiko always said that the hiten mitsurugi style of swordsmanship was designed to protect the innocent.

2. Its been 15 years since the end of the Kyoto arc (i think - something like that) and 25 since the fall of the Tokugawa regime. Even during the time of the main series, samurai, and traditional sword styles, where becoming more and more obsolete. By the time of Seisouhen, the remaining Samurai would have been between about 45 (kenshins aprox age) and about 65 (hikos aprox age). Swordsmanship would have been even more obsolete by then.

Now, why would Hiko want to pass down a style of combat that has been made obsolete by the changing world? Especially as he saw how it affected Kenshin's life - And Kenji being Kenshin's son, he most probably would have had a similar build to Kenshin. Why would anyone wish that sort of physical detoriation on another?

My opinion is that Hiko came to see what Kenshin knew in the series - there is no place for the Hiten Mitsurugi style in the modern age.
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maddog
Koyomi Mizuhara


Joined: 18 Feb 2001
Posts: 1881
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Personbot:
When he was fighting the giant Fuji he stated how disappointed he was that there were so few true warriors left so why would he stop passing the Hiten style on?



sorry, I misunderstood you in your first post I thought you were saying that hiko was out of character because he was teaching the hiten mitsurugi.
Anyways, uh.. now that I think about it, i can't really remember why I thought it was logical that hiko wouldn't pass down the school. But either way, another way of interpreting the whole fuji incident would be that there was noone else worthy enough of being trained in the hiten mitsurugi ryu.

and also, wing-gundam, like I said in my other post, i believe what you saw as a waste of time in the 1st OVA was necessary to show the building of kenshin/kaoru's relationship. They meet up, form a relationship, you begin to see how much kaoru means to kenshin during the fight with jin-eh, you see the hurt on kaoru when kenshin goes off to kyoto, etc. The OVA wasn't set out as a recap of the series, and if you continue to see it as such, you'll continue to hate it. The whole reflection story was to show kenshin/kaoru's relationship through kaoru's eyes, and personally, I feel that's what it did quite well.
As for the enishi inclusion, it also had it's part in revealing the development of kaoru/kenshin's relationship. Kaoru being told about kenshin's past wife, her feelings towards that before being kidnapped, then her doubts about whether kenshin will come to rescue her, her realisation of the pain kenshin's been through and then her own personal understanding that kenshin would positively come for her.
I felt that the parts you consider recaps/summations were involved to show the progression of kaoru/kenshins relationship and although they could have done the same without the fight scenes, maybe that had more to do with the marketing aspect of things (ie. some people consider kenshin to need some sort of action) but ay, when they choreograph the scenes as well as that, I'm not really complaining.
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2593
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by maddog:
As for the enishi inclusion, it also had it's part in revealing the development of kaoru/kenshin's relationship. Kaoru being told about kenshin's past wife, her feelings towards that before being kidnapped, then her doubts about whether kenshin will come to rescue her, her realisation of the pain kenshin's been through and then her own personal understanding that kenshin would positively come for her.



That was one of the stupidest parts for me. Once again look at the Kyoto Arc when Kenshin fought Aoshi and told him about the will to live is more important then anything and no matter what he would keep on living. So how come Kenshin decides to offer himself as a sacrifice to Enishi to attone for killing Tomoe? That goes totally against everything Kenshin learnt in Kyoto.
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Requiem
Linn Syun-Rock Dreu Haider Jinto


Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 2259
Location: Newcastle

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Personbot:
That was one of the stupidest parts for me. Once again look at the Kyoto Arc when Kenshin fought Aoshi and told him about the will to live is more important then anything and no matter what he would keep on living. So how come Kenshin decides to offer himself as a sacrifice to Enishi to attone for killing Tomoe? That goes totally against everything Kenshin learnt in Kyoto.



And is probably in the manga, too. so its not seisouhens fault, its the original writers.
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Venus of Willendorf
Doraemon


Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 49
Location: Kalgoorlie, WA

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Requiem:
And is probably in the manga, too. so its not seisouhens fault, its the original writers.


No siree, it wasn't in the manga... so sadly it is Seisouhen's fault.

I was very disappointed by Seisouhen/Reflection, and I agree with Merric on many of the points he wrote... did these people know anything about Kenshin? Kenshin's death was completely pointless... I'd like to strangle the jerk who thought that one up.

As for Kaoru and Kenshin's relationship, the manga showed it in a far better and more touching way. There's no way in Hell Kenshin would willingly pass on his disease to Kaoru... there's no way in Hell he'd abandon her like that either.

Seisouhen did have a couple of good points... the music and the animation... and seeing Yahiko all grown-up was a bonus.
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Requiem:
And is probably in the manga, too. so its not seisouhens fault, its the original writers.



I've read all of the manga and if that happened in the manga then I wouldn't have brought it up and that would stop Kenshin from being my favorite manga series.

Once again Seisouhen is terrible. Fights look good and good music, nothing more.

[This message has been edited by Personbot (edited 23 May 2003).]
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Requiem
Linn Syun-Rock Dreu Haider Jinto


Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 2259
Location: Newcastle

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ive just reread the relevant sections of the manga, and you guys are right. Of course, it doesn't really matter to me, as i don't treat it like watching Jinchuu
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2003 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Requiem:
Ive just reread the relevant sections of the manga, and you guys are right. Of course, it doesn't really matter to me, as i don't treat it like watching Jinchuu



That scene was taken from Jinchuu and butchered but once again I don't treat Seisouhen as Jinchuu animated. The fact is everything Kenshin learnt in the Kyoto Arc about valuing his life was completely forgotten by what ever idiot wrote the story for Seisouhen.
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Sleet
Doraemon


Joined: 15 May 2003
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2003 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I just watch as if it were a totally different series from Kenshin. So if I think it isn't part of Rurouni Kenshin, I can't really compare it to the series.

But one of my few complaints about it is Jin'e's voice in the dub, he sounds British, too British...
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yakumo_rok
Hajime Saitou


Joined: 20 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


Seen it and hate it, now if l can only erase my memory of it the better
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
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Location: My nan's house

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2003 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by yakumo_rok:


Seen it and hate it, now if l can only erase my memory of it the better



Soo much easier said then done I'm afraid.
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Darth Tallis
Van Fanel


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2003 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I couldn't take my eyes away from it. It had me hooked.
I did shed a tear or two at the end.

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The Gimpire Strikes Back On hold for the moment.

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Sunjiyan Unkara
Hajime Saitou


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Did i happen to skip a scene in this cause at the beginning he is drowning after he saves that fella on the boat, and i dont remember any thing else becoming of it

I didnt mind reflections, but i didnt get why kenshin was such a different sort of character

Also, that whole scene where Kaoru was saying how she was jealous of Tomoe was quite annoying.

[This message has been edited by Sunjiyan Unkara (edited 28 May 2003).]
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Battousai#1
Doraemon


Joined: 28 May 2003
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would just like to say to those people who thought the OAVS and Some of the TV shows were crap!, and to those who think they know everything about everysingle character in RK, you did not make or create the series, you do not know everysingle thing about the characters and for your information, the reason why some of the characters(eg. Kenshin) are different is because they are all growing up! Offcoarse they would change. And also Kenshin did not LET Kaoru become infected with his disease, he did say no to her when she tried at her first go, then she pleaded to get herself infected so Kenshin let her(regretfully).
And also, RK is the best show with the best OAVS and I can't stand people mocking and critisising(i don't know how to spell that word) this TOTALLY COOL AND THE BEST AND THE MOST AWESOMESHOW EVER!!!!
Now that I got that of my chest, I would just like to say to yhose people who said it was good, YOU ROCK!!!!
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Battousai#1:

the reason why some of the characters(eg. Kenshin) are different is because they are all growing up! Offcoarse they would change. And also Kenshin did not LET Kaoru become infected with his disease, he did say no to her when she tried at her first go, then she pleaded to get herself infected so Kenshin let her(regretfully).



Kenshin would never of given in to her because of the whole "value of life" stuff Kenshin learned in Kyoto. That was one of the main points of the series and yet they completely forgot all about it in the OVA's.

Not only in the scene when he gave Kaoru the disease, but also in the fight with Enishi. Enishi wants to kill Kenshin out of revenge for Tomoe's death. In Seisouhen at the end of the fight Kenshin decides to let Enishi kill him. Why!? No matter how much Kenshin changes there is no way he would do that. How could Kenshin perform the Hiten Mitsurugi Ougi if he was so willing to sacrifise himself?

Edit: I just thought I'd say that I think Seisouhen has more plot holes in its 90 minute then an entire saga of DBZ.

[This message has been edited by Personbot (edited 28 May 2003).]
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merric
Shinji Ikari


Joined: 12 Jan 2001
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Battousai#1:
i would just like to say to those people who thought the OAVS and Some of the TV shows were crap!, and to those who think they know everything about everysingle character in RK, you did not make or create the series,



Exactly, I didn't create the series, and neither did the people who did Seisouhen. Nobuhiro Watsuki created the series, but he didn't write Seisouhen.

Quote:
Now that I got that of my chest, I would just like to say to yhose people who said it was good, YOU ROCK!!!!


I'm sure it'll mean the world to them to have your approval.
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yakumo_rok
Hajime Saitou


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched it again, even the short Jinchu extract was not enough to save this turkey. Ok, that was harsh but it goes against everything the series and OVA have built upon and the ending sucked, sucked l tell you.

sure l cried, cried with pain that is!!

So l rewatched Betrayal and Trust again, man that was good. The problem with Reflection is they shouldn't have made it, l wish they done the Jinchu arc like millions of other people
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Weis
Meryl Strife


Joined: 14 Dec 2001
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Personbot:
Edit: I just thought I'd say that I think Seisouhen has more plot holes in its 90 minute then an entire saga of DBZ.



Umm...

No

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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Weis:
Umm...

No




Read through all the topics about Seisouhen and I reacon you could come up with a list of plot holes to rival any saga of DBZ. And I'm not talking about the Funi version because that would be impossible to rival.
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demon_darkness
Doraemon


Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
reflections ruined kenshin for me
i am ****ed off about it coming out so early
so not happy
you bastard thinking about nothing but money
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darktruth90
Mayuko Chigasaki


Joined: 10 Jan 2002
Posts: 952

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Umm...I'm kinda confused on how the series and ova fit together and the order of the whole series which came first? The OVA or the TV series? and how do they relate to each other?

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Requiem
Linn Syun-Rock Dreu Haider Jinto


Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 2259
Location: Newcastle

PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by darktruth90:
Umm...I'm kinda confused on how the series and ova fit together and the order of the whole series which came first? The OVA or the TV series? and how do they relate to each other?



Its been posted elsewhere, but...

Chronological order:
Trust
Betrayal
Series up to 14
movie
rest of series
Seishouen/reflections

Order based on the manga:
series up till 14
oavs
movie and rest of series, as they don't happen in the manga

In my opinion i think its fine to watch it in chronological order, but others think that its best to watch up to dvd seven of the series before watching t&b. You DEFINATLY should watch dvd 14 before watching reflections. Also, the movie can go anywhere between 14 and the end of the series as its a self-contained story.

T&B is set 10 - 12 years before the start of the series, and reflections is set 15 years after. So basically, the oavs are kenshins background, and how he got the scar and his reputation, the series is, well, the series - the core of the anime, chronicling his trials and tribulations. Reflections is a look back on the series from kaorus point of view, and the tells the tale of the characters lives after the end of dvd 14. Note that reflections is based on the manga, not the anime - dvds 15 - 22 didn't occur in the manga, and the manga has a whole arc, the jinchuu arc, that didn't occur in the series. Im not going to debate reflections merits or lack thereof here - you can read all that above

[This message has been edited by Requiem (edited 13 June 2003).]
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merric
Shinji Ikari


Joined: 12 Jan 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by darktruth90:
Umm...I'm kinda confused on how the series and ova fit together and the order of the whole series which came first? The OVA or the TV series? and how do they relate to each other?




In the manga, the TV series volumes 1-14 came first - the Tokyo and the Kyoto Arc.

After that came the Jinchu Arc, most of which has never been animated. Both Reflections and Trust/Betrayal are based on the Jinchu Arc. T/B is based on a flashback sequence in the manga. The parts of Reflections with Enishi is loosely based on the end of Jinchu.
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Manski_Kenshin
Hajime Saitou


Joined: 16 Oct 2001
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Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im just really ****ed of that i have been unable to find a copy of this on the sunshine coast!!! along with FLCL vol 2. EB must have sold out of them on the day and havnt ordered anymore in =(
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Manski_Kenshin:
Im just really ****ed of that i have been unable to find a copy of this on the sunshine coast!!! along with FLCL vol 2. EB must have sold out of them on the day and havnt ordered anymore in =(



I know the guys at my local EB pretty well and go in and talk to them a lot. For some reason this store sells the most anime in the district yet they only get 1 or 2 copies of something in at a time. Normally they will hold the new releases for me and my friend but now its taking me 2 to 4 weeks sometimes just to get my hands on what I want.
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russ
Doraemon


Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 29
Location: Sydney, NSW

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some of you fellas are a bit ridiculous.

How the hell can you claim to know what Kenshin would and wouldn't do?

Here is a guy that has murdered more poeple than most of us will ever meet in our lives, killed his Wife, been through Wars, scars all over his body, disease ridden, falling in Love again, having a child and in a time we don't undestand, and wich most of us had only ever read about in books, if at all even thought of ... yet you claim to know what runs through his Pshyche and how his mind would work?

Talk about ignorance ... I thought after watching a series like Rurouni Kinshin that maybe, if taking Kenshins siuations and mirroring them with your own, just maybe, your mind could evolve and look at certain situations in a new light.

Obviously alot of you just paid attention to those awesome fight scenes, the curves of the females, and *****ed about "audio sync"" problems on you DVD's ...


Events & Characters in "Reflection" arn't contradictions. It's called Evolving. Things happen in life ... and as they happen, unless you're an abslute blockhead, you learn new things, see things in a different light, things you've experienced in your life take new meaning and perspectives change ...


Throw away your stupid fan boy posturing ... **** off everything you think you know, turnf off your computer, and watch the entire Kenshin series back to back, including the OVA's, all in their proper order, and try and experience Rurouni Kenshin for what it is.

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Wing-Gundam
Motoko Kusanagi


Joined: 10 Feb 2001
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by russ:
Some of you fellas are a bit ridiculous.



Look who`s talking.

Quote:
How the hell can you claim to know what Kenshin would and wouldn't do?


Because after watching a series for so long, it becomes blatently obvious, especially when the character has been trying to drill it into your head for the past 95 damn episodes, or 29 volumes of manga.

Quote:
Here is a guy that has murdered more poeple than most of us will ever meet in our lives, killed his Wife, been through Wars, scars all over his body, disease ridden, falling in Love again, having a child and in a time we don't undestand, and wich most of us had only ever read about in books, if at all even thought of ... yet you claim to know what runs through his Pshyche and how his mind would work?


Bear in mind through all of your drivel that Kenshin is a fictional character. He is based off a real person, who`s name escapes me, however, he IS NOT REAL. Neither myself nor anybody else claims to know what runs through his psyche, but we know the most important things he`s said, mainly to do with the will to live, yet whoever wrote the plot for Seishouen decided that everything he`d said up until is irrelevant. You say you learn as you go forward, but remember, you don`t just forget your entire past in the mean time.

quote:
Talk about ignorance ... I thought after watching a series like Rurouni Kinshin that maybe, if taking Kenshins siuations and mirroring them with your own, just maybe, your mind could evolve and look at certain situations in a new light.

Obviously alot of you just paid attention to those awesome fight scenes, the curves of the females, and *****ed about "audio sync"" problems on you DVD's ...



Yes, looking at them in the light of "The will to live is stronger than anything else", which is one of the BIGGEST points in the ENTIRE SERIES.


Quote:
Events & Characters in "Reflection" arn't contradictions. It's called Evolving. Things happen in life ... and as they happen, unless you're an abslute blockhead, you learn new things, see things in a different light, things you've experienced in your life take new meaning and perspectives change ...


My replies to this. One, read the manga. Two, only a "blockhead" would forget everything he`s learnt in the past 20 years of his life and go against it, and REPEAT the same mistake he made before.

Quote:
Throw away your stupid fan boy posturing ... **** off everything you think you know, turnf off your computer, and watch the entire Kenshin series back to back, including the OVA's, all in their proper order, and try and experience Rurouni Kenshin for what it is.


And again, you should take your own damn advice. Firstly, don`t go giving us lectures on how we don`t understand anything and how you`ve somehow climbed above all us "fanboys" because you can`t imagine anyone criticising anything with the tag "Rurouni Kenshin" slapped on it.

Secondly, go and read the manga, and see how the damn series is MEANT to end according to the creator.




------------------
"In this world which will ultimately collapse, dreams and hopes are meaningless" - X Tv Opening
"Dreams and Love are nothing but expedient illusions, endlessly avoiding reality" - Scryed Opening
"The end has not been written, and the title of strongest has not yet been bestowed" - Shinomori Aoshi
"夢?@の?@ない?@この?@?「界" - "Rosier", Luna Sea
"ふたつ?@の?@明日?Aでも?@未来?@わ?@ひとつ" -?@?M
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merric
Shinji Ikari


Joined: 12 Jan 2001
Posts: 3444
Location: Brisbane

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by russ:
Some of you fellas are a bit ridiculous.

How the hell can you claim to know what Kenshin would and wouldn't do?



I think it's quite obvious that you haven't bothered to read any of the previous posts on this thread, but here we go again ...

You're right, I can't claim to know what Kenshin would and wouldn't do. But neither can the people who wrote Seisouhen. The original creator of Kenshin didn't have input into Seisouhen and didn't like it very much for precisely the reasons that we've articulated here.

I don't know what Kenshin would have done in that situation, but if the comments of the original creator of the series are anything to go by, then the people do did Seisouhen don't know either.
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Weis
Meryl Strife


Joined: 14 Dec 2001
Posts: 8075
Location: A Dip in the Suburbs...

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wing-Gundam:
Bear in mind through all of your drivel that Kenshin is a fictional character. He is based off a real person, who`s name escapes me, however, he IS NOT REAL



Visit this site to find out about the characters in Rurouni Kenshin to see who they are really based off.

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"Im blind not deaf"
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Wing-Gundam
Motoko Kusanagi


Joined: 10 Feb 2001
Posts: 857
Location: Adelaide, Australia

PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2003 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cheers for the link, I`d forgotten about that. I remember most of them (the one`s that keep the same name, anyway, like Okita, Saitou Hajime, and Okubo Toshimichi) but I couldn`t remember the name of the person Kenshin was based off. All I remember is that he was executed for treason, or some simlar reason.

Time to refresh my memory ^_^.

------------------
"In this world which will ultimately collapse, dreams and hopes are meaningless" - X Tv Opening
"Dreams and Love are nothing but expedient illusions, endlessly avoiding reality" - Scryed Opening
"The end has not been written, and the title of strongest has not yet been bestowed" - Shinomori Aoshi
"夢?@の?@ない?@この?@?「界" - "Rosier", Luna Sea
"ふたつ?@の?@明日?Aでも?@未来?@わ?@ひとつ" -?@?M
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russ
Doraemon


Joined: 30 Dec 2002
Posts: 29
Location: Sydney, NSW

PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
you are missing the point ...

Regardless of it being a fictional character, cartoon, movie, manga, comic book, an add on TV or whatever ...

Rurouni Kenshin is a Human Being ... and being a human yourself, you should realise how hard it is to stick with your convictions.

Most people don't have the moxy to practice what they preach, and these are minor things like telling people not to smoke or do drugs because it's bad for your health, then turn around and eat a Hamburger & Hot Chips ...

You've taken my post the wrong way trying to turn it into an "I'm right, you're wrong" prdicament. Quoting everything I've said, and trying to counter it.

It's not about that ... it's about reading it, then looking at things differently ... don't be so judgemental and pissed of that Kenshin changed ... that's my point ... with everything he's seen/done/been through, of course he's going to change. How? No one knew, but it was bound to happen ...
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merric
Shinji Ikari


Joined: 12 Jan 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
russ wrote:
It's not about that ... it's about reading it, then looking at things differently ... don't be so judgemental and pissed of that Kenshin changed ... that's my point ... with everything he's seen/done/been through, of course he's going to change. How? No one knew, but it was bound to happen ...


Well, it wasn't bound to happen, because it happens exactly the opposite way in the ending to the manga. If it's obvious that what he's been through would change him in that way, then why didn't Nobuhiro Watsuki see it that way?

The point is that the ending that is Seisouhen isn't what was intended by the creator of the series.

Nobody's complaining that he changed, they're complaining that they changes are inconsistent with what Nobuhiro Watsuki had planned for the character.
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Personbot
Cagalli Yula Attha


Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 2593
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
russ wrote:
Obviously alot of you just paid attention to those awesome fight scenes, the curves of the females, and *****ed about "audio sync"" problems on you DVD's ...


The curves of the females?

On the inside flap to Volume 16 of the manga Nobuhiro Watsuki jokes about how all the female characters look so plain in Ruroken because he can't draw cute girls.
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Blue Storm
Doraemon


Joined: 11 Jan 2003
Posts: 32
Location: 127.0.0.1

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I really liked Reflections for one very important reason, it ended on a point very central to the series. I haven't read the manga or seen all the anime yet and thus don't have that utter commitment to it (although I do a about a lot of other things) so I don't know all the other subtle points about it not fitting in with the over all story and the characters acted differently and all. All I know is that in Reflections, Kenshin died not as the bloody swordsman he was told he would all through out the series, he went through all that, worked at it and in the end defended the inocent and died as Shinta the man, without the sword. To me this is the ultimate end to his journey, considering he was given his path in life without any choice when he was only 2 or 3, did terible things in his life but then tried to make up for it. Even though everyone said he couldn't do it and all he did.

That is why I love reflections.
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Miyuki
Minawa Andou


Joined: 29 Jul 2003
Posts: 590
Location: Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I can't say I wasn't disappointed after watching Reflections...although I respect what the animators were trying to achieve.

The first episode was pretty much a VERY brief summary of the Kenshin TV series leading up to the end of the Kyoto arc. I respect the creators bids to push the emotions to the limits but I felt that they needed more space than just 2 OVA's to do so. In the end while it was incredibly sad, it felt fragmented and rushed, that they tried to tie everything up in the second episode when it probably needed another 2 or three.

Even after Reflections tragic ending I much preferred the Jinchuu arc of the manga and how the manga ended.

If you prefer Reflections, then that's fine too, the anime and manga went their separate ways after the Kyoto arc and I prefer how the manga ended.
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someonewhoishere
Doraemon


Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Adelaide

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 6:07 pm    Post subject: I can't bear to watch it! Reply with quote
Embarassed I'm such a wimp, but when I was little I made myself watch all the icky bits in horror movies to make myself stronger, now I'm older I realise seeing these things upsets me, and rarely adds to a movie, so now I wont watch bits that upset me. Why should I bother!
getting to Kenshin.....! Laughing
I can't bear to watch Reflections!
I saw a little bit of the start and heard what it was about, and then I started bawling my eyes out!
Ever since it was obvious Kaoru had it for Kenshin I have yelled at the unhearing Kenshin on my screen, "But what about Kaoru, think of her, she loves you!" but to no avail. he still hasn't proposed (we're up to episode 19, I doubt it will occur though!) and she loves him sooooo much!
Wink
But she's so quiet and respectful of his emotional and physical needs, and he like, well firstly a male (ie. has no clue!) and secondly like a man with the weight of the world on his shoulders (too busy to notice) rarely notices her emotional needs.

Although, I like where they're at after the whole Shishio incident though. There seems to be an understanding between them about their relationship which is fine for the moment. But I refuse to watch reflections, I can't watch reflections, I cry thinking about reflections, and I still own it!
Rolling Eyes
I love Kenshin (obviously, as per my posting under the 95 episodes board, check it out! it's about them continuing Kenshin for a decade like they did the american 'Friends' show! What would you prefer 8 seasons of, David Schwimmer or Kenshin? Silly question!) I love all the characters in Kenshin, but reflections... I feel I wont see until I'm really old, or feeling like getting really depressed! Razz
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Armisael
.:Harlot:.


Joined: 26 Jan 2001
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Although I found this to be a great OVA and like it a whole lot. I could not but felt feel like they were filler eps, going into the past and recapping some parts, although the parts they re-done were perfect and such.


A great two-part OVA. Very sad!
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clem is my movie aggressive go-getter.
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sgt_tediz
Koishi Herikawa


Joined: 30 Aug 2001
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Armisael wrote:
A great two-part OVA. Very sad!


i thought Trust/Betrayal had a lot more emotion to it and was more sad =/
i watched through Reflection and though, meh, that was alright, and nothing more.
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Armisael
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
sgt_tediz wrote:
I thought Trust/Betrayal had a lot more emotion to it and was more sad =/
i watched through Reflection and though, meh, that was alright, and nothing more.


Yes, but Reflections was in itself a depressing anime. I mean, T&B were more of an action anime, with politics and such, but Reflections was a more humain story.
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